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Please help! Student and carer! Outstanding Debt of £716!, Disabled person and evidence of care needed refused
Istudent2222
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 11:15
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I need urgent help with an escalated situation where one of the ticket has reached a total of £716!!!!!

Please note I am dyslexic so I am trying to word this as best as I can. Thank you in advance for you help and support.

Background: two PCN tickets that have escalated to Northampton county court  both have been refused under the rule 23.8 on the same day 20th December, unfortunately now I am also out of time for the N244 but feel as though I have plausible reason as I am a carer acting on behalf of the respondent who is the individual who the tickets are addressed to. I feel as thought the individual has a strong case it just the issue of wording and knowledge of law which I will struggle to accumulate with the borrowed time I have. I am a student and a carer who drives the vehicle of the individual I am caring for Please help!!!

Ticket 1. I had paid for time to park and have evidence of such and came back an hour later due to medical condition.  I notified the Haringey council and The ticket was put back down to the discounted price but I missed it in the emails in junk and therefore had to  filed a witness statement. This, they declined and because the ticket is not in my name I am acting on behalf of someone I am caring for and did not tick the ligitimate friend box. I resent this again via post with all the correct boxes ticked and recieved no corrospondence In between then. this I sent it off on 30th October and only recieved a reply witness statement refusal on 20th December. They have stated that there is no reason for refusal. And that they are not obligated to provide reason. The date order was made and withdrawn are both the 20th December. To reiterate the PCN is addressed in the owner of the car who is NOT the driver of the vehicle. I am (the carer) and the driver . I need advice beofre I move forward because I understand any move is vital right now.

Ticket 2:  this ticket has been handed over to the bailiff of which they have visited one time and posted two letters. The ticket had now accumulated itself to a fine of £716 which is absured. The company perusing is JBW acting on behalf of Islington borough . Background is Similar to the previous ticket the email te7 and te9 was sent however refused due to so I had sent these correct forms again via email. An order for recovery date sent on 23.10.19. I filed a statement upon the grounds I should not pay as this ticket was also due to medical conditions on 11.11.19. I feel where I lack defence and the problem with why I am getting refusal is the evidence I am provision, because this this condition is unpredictable and varies in intensity and does not require a ambulance every time and therefore collecting medical documents is difficult. I sent an email with evidence of carer responsibilities and explained the condition was unpredictable and still no hope. Today we are in a debt of 716 pounds.
After sending out the witness states I've had no correspondence with regard to if it had been accepted or not until 20th December. In the meantime 26.11.19 JBW sent a letter pertaining to an increased fine labelled outstanding penalty of £278 in which I had 7 days to provide evidence of earning. Ignored because I hadn't recieved a reply with regard to the witness statement. Next  on 11.12.19   a ticket was posted stating the £716. Only on the 20th of December was the witness statement refused.

The respondant left the country on the 20th December with family for two weeks. (evidence provided) Both of these letters from Northampton County Court were sent on the 20th providing a restricted time of 14 days. I understand that time now had doubled but due to the mitigating circumstances could anyone advise on where to go next? I can't allow this to escalate any further as the tickets are not in my name but I am the carer for this individual and its not fair and I feel as thought I have failed

Should I:
Still try to file a N244 providing I explain the reason for out of time again but alla explaining the health condition and fact post was not recieved due to being out of the country? If yes, please support with wording to ensure a minimal chance of refusal 😢.


P. S. I will get around to uploading evidence I just needs to post this for help urgently.
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post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 11:15
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stamfordman
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 11:29
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As you probably know, only the owner/keeper is liable so this is not you. But you clearly feel bad as you've been trying to deal with the PCNs and have failed to follow process so they escalated.

I think this is one where you could most usefully turn to https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk - we recommend them and they are not costly. There may be something that can be done owing to the circumstances.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 16:47
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OP, I'm totally confused because you keep describing notices, letters and stages in the process wrongly.

Just the facts pl:

PCN 1
For parking contravention, yes?
You are not the registered keeper, correct? (the driver is irrelevant)
NTO dated *** issued to A who is the registered keeper?
Were representations made, if so by whom, how and when?
Notice of refusal issued on ***, sent by post and received by the owner, A?
Penalty charge was not paid?
Was appeal registered with adjudicator?
Order for Recovery issued on ****?
Late (presumably) witness statement submitted by ***(method) to Traffic Enforcement Centre by owner on ***?
TEC's response dated *** rejected out of time request?

PCN 2
£716 is not a sum I recognise. Bailiff costs per stage are £75 and £235 (you refer to 2 letters) which, when added to the max. possible penalty of £203 (£195 + £8 court registration fee)gives £513.

The only way in which I can make £716 is if £203 is owing on PCN 1 and £513 on PCN 2.

Anyway, for PCN 2 ...
What is the date of TEC's letter refusing permission to file a witness statement late?
What is the date of JBW's latest letter?

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Istudent2222
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 20:54
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 16:47) *
OP, I'm totally confused because you keep describing notices, letters and stages in the process wrongly.

Just the facts pl:

PCN 1
For parking contravention, yes? correct
You are not the registered keeper, correct? (the driver is irrelevant) no, I am not the registered keeper - I am acting on behalf of the registered keeper
NTO dated *** issued to A who is the registered keeper? All letters issued to registered keeper - not sure of date of NTO
Were representations made, if so by whom, how and when? Representations made by me and not registered owner, appeal made through council website on 10/06/19 (date of contravention was 24/04/19) response of refusal sent 19/06/2019 via email but missed as junk mail which led to witness statement being filed
Notice of refusal issued on ***, sent by post and received by the owner, A? rejection of appeal made on 19/06/2019 and notice of refusal for witness statement out of time dated 20/12/2019
Penalty charge was not paid?not paid
Was appeal registered with adjudicator? no
Order for Recovery issued on ****? order for recovery deadline 23/10/2019
Late (presumably) witness statement submitted by ***(method) to Traffic Enforcement Centre by owner on ***? Witness statement submitted via email on 14/11/2019 TE7 AND TE9 - TE7 completed by legitimate friend acting on behalf of respondent TE9 completed by registered keeper - email reply stating TE7 must be completed by registered keeper - correct forms were sent via post later that day
TEC's response dated *** rejected out of time request? Response of refusal dated 20/12/2019

PCN 2
£716 is not a sum I recognise. Bailiff costs per stage are £75 and £235 (you refer to 2 letters) which, when added to the max. possible penalty of £203 (£195 + £8 court registration fee)gives £513.

The only way in which I can make £716 is if £203 is owing on PCN 1 and £513 on PCN 2. the JBW states there is a total amount of £716 owed on PCN 2 only - I am unsure how?

Anyway, for PCN 2 ...
What is the date of TEC's letter refusing permission to file a witness statement late? The date of the letter refusing permission is 20/12/2019. I mistakingly filled out the form for dart charge PCNS only (via email) resent the correct form via post 12/11/2019 and never received a response regarding this until the date above. in between the 12/11/2019 and 20/12/2019 3 contacts with JBW occured.


What is the date of JBW's latest letter? the first penalty charge was of £278 on 26/11/2019 the second an enforcement agent came to the property of the registered keeper on 10/12/2019 latest letter sent was dated 11/12/2019 - with an outstanding balance of £203 + £513 = £716
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cp8759
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 22:58
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Istudent2222 there's no such thing as a "legitimate friend" and your attempts to file documents at court likely amount to a criminal offence of performing a reserved legal activity. This is because you are not a solicitor or otherwise authorised in law to conduct litigation and you have no right to file court documents on behalf of someone else.

The only exception is if the person you're representation lacks legal capacity and you're acting as their litigation friend, as explained here: https://www.gov.uk/litigation-friend

So, does the registered keeper lack legal capacity? This seems unlikely because if they lack legal capacity, the Court of Protection should have appointed a deputy, as per https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy and if there were a deputy, doing this would be up to them. Please don't take offence but I don't think you would be appointed as a deputy by the court.

Just to confirm, you should not send **anything** to the court on behalf of the registered keeper until we've resolved these issues because doing so is likely to be a criminal offence.


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hcandersen
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 10:28
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I'd even go one step further back to what can be done before concerning myself with who might do it.

And what can be done?

OP, as I understand matters:

For both PCN 1 and PCN 2 applications to submit out-of-time statements have been refused, correct?

In both cases the time allowed to submit a N244 has passed, correct?

The only procedural option in either case is to request the court to accept a late N244.

Unless the applicant is entitled to a fee reduction, then costs would be payable.

Have you contacted bailiffonline.

IMO, the only possible angle here is that a well-meaning but ultimately ill-informed carer has caused the owner to get into this position.

Which IMO means you must hand over the reins to someone else and the sooner the better.

At present the longer you try and resolve this yourself the bigger the hole gets for the owner. I know this sounds a lot to ask of you, but the owner needs detailed assistance from a qualified person even of this incurs a cost.
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mickR
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 10:39
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 22:58) *
Istudent2222 there's no such thing as a "legitimate friend" and your attempts to file documents at court likely amount to a criminal offence of performing a reserved legal activity.......
The only exception is if the person you're representation lacks legal capacity and you're acting as their litigation friend, as explained here: https://www.gov.uk/litigation-friend


I wonder if that is what the OP means as they refer to the " legitimate friend" in the third party, where as everywhere else they use refer to themselves as "I"

This post has been edited by mickR: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 10:42
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cp8759
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 08:28
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QUOTE (mickR @ Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 10:39) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 22:58) *
Istudent2222 there's no such thing as a "legitimate friend" and your attempts to file documents at court likely amount to a criminal offence of performing a reserved legal activity.......
The only exception is if the person you're representation lacks legal capacity and you're acting as their litigation friend, as explained here: https://www.gov.uk/litigation-friend


I wonder if that is what the OP means as they refer to the " legitimate friend" in the third party, where as everywhere else they use refer to themselves as "I"

Unfortunately many well-meaning people tick the litigation friend box on court documents, without any appreciation of the legal capacity angle.

I think this case could ultimately be winnable, not least because there's a fair chance the debtor might be eligible for a remission of fees, but until Istudent2222 comes back and confirms whether the debtor actually has mental capacity or not there's not much we can say.


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Istudent2222
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 08:55
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 08:28) *
QUOTE (mickR @ Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 10:39) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 22:58) *
Istudent2222 there's no such thing as a "legitimate friend" and your attempts to file documents at court likely amount to a criminal offence of performing a reserved legal activity.......
The only exception is if the person you're representation lacks legal capacity and you're acting as their litigation friend, as explained here: https://www.gov.uk/litigation-friend


I wonder if that is what the OP means as they refer to the " legitimate friend" in the third party, where as everywhere else they use refer to themselves as "I"

Unfortunately many well-meaning people tick the litigation friend box on court documents, without any appreciation of the legal capacity angle.

I think this case could ultimately be winnable, not least because there's a fair chance the debtor might be eligible for a remission of fees, but until Istudent2222 comes back and confirms whether the debtor actually has mental capacity or not there's not much we can say.


. Litigation friend is what I intended, apologies for the confusion. I am also confused.

The person I am caring for does not have the mental capacity to fill out this form hence I filled and signed as a litigation friend
.
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Istudent2222
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 10:13
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At this point I need support filing an N244 form, I feel. I have enough evidence to support the late application.

This post has been edited by Istudent2222: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 10:14
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 11:06
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QUOTE (Istudent2222 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 08:55) *
The person I am caring for does not have the mental capacity to fill out this form hence I filled and signed as a litigation friend [/b].

What evidence do you have that the person you are caring for lacks mental capacity? For example, has the Court of Protection appointed a deputy? Or is there a lasting power of attorney or enduring power of attorney? If the person you are caring for really lacks metal capacity then fine, but you can't except the court to just take your word for it without some sort of proof.


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hcandersen
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 12:04
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And have you contacted bailiffonline or are you still intent on freelancing this?

Your track record to date is not impressive and on this basis I can only say again that you must seek professional advice. And remember, it is not your money at stake unless you have undertaken to reimburse your client fully. If not, then I must seriously question your proposed actions.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 12:04
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 15:08
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Caring for a relative or friend or paid care in the employ of someone?


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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Neil B
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 16:51
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QUOTE (Istudent2222 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 10:13) *
At this point I need support filing an N244 form,

I don't have a single clue of what your actual case is or what reason you would have to file N244.

You mention an amount of £716 which makes no sense.

We don't know how this came to be with bailiffs in the first place.

Most importantly, we haven't seen a single document that might enlighten us.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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whitewing
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:04
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Is it possible/legal for bailiffs to enforce against someone who doesn't have mental capacity?

This post has been edited by whitewing: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:06
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Neil B
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:20
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QUOTE (whitewing @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:04) *
Is it possible/legal for bailiffs to enforce against someone who doesn't have mental capacity?


From Taking Control Regs.
Circumstances in which the enforcement agent may not take control of goods
10.—(1) The enforcement agent may not take control of goods of the debtor where—

(a)the debtor is a child;
(b)a child or vulnerable person (whether more than one or a combination of both) is the only person present in the relevant or specified premises in which the goods are located; or
©the goods are also premises in which a child or vulnerable person (whether more than one or a combination of both) is the only person present.


From National Standards for Bailiffs.
70. Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise that they each have
a role in ensuring that the vulnerable and socially excluded are protected and that
the recovery process includes procedures agreed between the agent/agency and
creditor about how such situations should be dealt with. The appropriate use of
discretion is essential in every case and no amount of guidance could cover
every situation. Therefore the agent has a duty to contact the creditor and report
the circumstances in situations where there is evidence of a potential cause for
concern.
71. If necessary, the enforcement agent will advise the creditor if further action is
appropriate. The exercise of appropriate discretion is needed, not only to protect
the debtor, but also the enforcement agent who should avoid taking action which
could lead to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.

74. A debtor may be considered vulnerable if, for reasons of age, health or disability
they are unable to safeguard their personal welfare or the personal welfare of
other members of the household.
75. The enforcement agent must be sure that the debtor or the person to whom they
are entering into a controlled goods agreement understands the agreement and
the consequences if the agreement is not complied with.
76. Enforcement agents should be aware that vulnerability may not be immediately
obvious.
77. Some groups who might be vulnerable are listed below. However, this list is not
exhaustive. Care should be taken to assess each situation on a case by case
basis.
 the elderly;
 people with a disability;
 the seriously ill;
 the recently bereaved;
 single parent families;
 pregnant women;
 unemployed people; and,
 those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading
English.

But all still a bit vague on who takes the decision.

OP is equally vague on just about everything.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:25


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Istudent2222
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:30
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 10:28) *
I'd even go one step further back to what can be done before concerning myself with who might do it.

And what can be done?

OP, as I understand matters:

For both PCN 1 and PCN 2 applications to submit out-of-time statements have been refused, correct? correct

In both cases the time allowed to submit a N244 has passed, correct? correct

The only procedural option in either case is to request the court to accept a late N244. This Is what I'd like to do

Unless the applicant is entitled to a fee reduction, then costs would be payable. they are entitled to a fee reduction

Have you contacted bailiffonline. yes I have thank you

IMO, the only possible angle here is that a well-meaning but ultimately ill-informed carer has caused the owner to get into this position.

Which IMO means you must hand over the reins to someone else and the sooner the better.

At present the longer you try and resolve this yourself the bigger the hole gets for the owner. I know this sounds a lot to ask of you, but the owner needs detailed assistance from a qualified person even of this incurs a cost.



QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 16:51) *
QUOTE (Istudent2222 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 10:13) *
At this point I need support filing an N244 form,

I don't have a single clue of what your actual case is or what reason you would have to file N244.

You mention an amount of £716 which makes no sense.

We don't know how this came to be with bailiffs in the first place.

Most importantly, we haven't seen a single document that might enlighten us.




QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 15:08) *
Caring for a relative or friend or paid care in the employ of someone?

caring for a relative

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 12:04) *
And have you contacted bailiffonline or are you still intent on freelancing this?

Your track record to date is not impressive and on this basis I can only say again that you must seek professional advice. And remember, it is not your money at stake unless you have undertaken to reimburse your client fully. If not, then I must seriously question your proposed actions.

I already feel bad enough, I have contacted baliffonline, thank you.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:33
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Contact Sheila here link here to this thread

https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/

You are woefully out of your depth and are not helping the dependent person get the help that you can


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stamfordman
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:39
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OP says they have contacted Sheila, which I recommended from the start. Let's hope it turns out OK.
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