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FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ [NIP Wizard] NIP Wizard - Scotland
Posted by: shy Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 17:21
Post #1495716
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2019
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A956 North Esplanade West, Aberdeen, near Raik Road
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons -
NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Yes
NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
- Complete the Section 172 statement naming the person you believe was driving.
You aren't incriminating them - they'll receive a NIP to complete themselves in due course.
(You might also like to let that person know that they can expect to receive one, and give them the link to this Wizard for when it arrives!)
Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:21:28 +0000
Posted by: The Rookie Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 17:58
Post #1495729
As above, just reply naming the driver.
Posted by: Jlc Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 18:47
Post #1495735
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 18:58)
As above, just reply naming the driver.
?
Posted by: The Rookie Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 18:56
Post #1495739
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 19:47)
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 18:58)
As above, just reply naming the driver.
?
Op not the driver, knows who they are?
Posted by: Jlc Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 19:01
Post #1495742
Aha... My bad!
Posted by: shy Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 08:11
Post #1499812
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2019
Date of the NIP: - 21 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 22 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A956 North Esplanade West, Aberdeen, near Raik Road
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - User. Partner is registered keeper.
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - General speeding. Wasn't even aware of a camera van being present until NIP received so there is little memory of the event.
NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Scotland
NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
- The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.
Depending on your circumstances, you may wish to consider completing the form, but http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=2644&st=0&p=22316. By doing so there is a risk that you will be convicted under s172, which would attract 6 penalty points and a fine; in most cases this is likely to exceed the penalty for the speeding offence itself.
You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.
Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 08:10:41 +0000
Updated after naming the driver as per NIP wizard recommendation. What next?
Posted by: BaggieBoy Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 08:22
Post #1499814
Person named will get their own notice, at that point they will need to "own" up to being the driver by returning a signed S172 request or as the NIP wizard says they have the option to return it "unsigned".
Posted by: BrianB Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 08:54
Post #1499818
Looks like the first NIP went to the RK, and this is now the second NIP to the named driver. No late NIP defence.
Posted by: The Rookie Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 12:06
Post #1499849
As for any Scottish case, unsigned is an option, read up on it and then come back with any questions you have if you think it’s right for you.
Posted by: shy Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 18:57
Post #1499944
Where do I read up? The link from the NIP wizard is from many years ago. Has anything changed since then?
Posted by: BaggieBoy Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 19:15
Post #1499949
Not really. We are not aware of a case where an unsigned nomination has ever resulted in a conviction. The other side will take it to the wire but they have always dropped the case right at the last possible time.
Posted by: shy Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 19:47
Post #1499959
Ok thanks. Will chance it. Does the fact that I’ve named the driver make a difference? Meaning the original NIP was to me. What details are required minus the signature?
Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 04:45
Post #1499981
Makes no difference, unless you were in the passenger seat you can’t name the driver (just who you think it was) and the police don’t know if you were there or not. A reply naming someone else has no evidential value as to driver identity.
Posted by: shy Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 05:35
Post #1499982
Ok. Finally how do I complete the form and what do I need to say to cops if they turn up?
Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 11:03
Post #1500049
You complete the form as required, all except the signature.
You send it back to arrive just before or on day 28.(day ONE was when it was served, or it was assumed served two WORKING days after it was dated. Use as much time up as you can.
Posted by: andy_foster Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 13:18
Post #1500112
QUOTE (shy @ Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 06:35)
Ok. Finally how do I complete the form and what do I need to say to cops if they turn up?
Depends on who "I" is. Do you currently identify as the RK who wasn't driving, or do you identify as the driver?
Posted by: shy Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 18:41
Post #1500214
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 14:18)
QUOTE (shy @ Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 06:35)
Ok. Finally how do I complete the form and what do I need to say to cops if they turn up?
Depends on who "I" is. Do you currently identify as the RK who wasn't driving, or do you identify as the driver?
Ok so how does the missus complete the form? I’m RK and she was driving.
Posted by: BaggieBoy Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 19:45
Post #1500228
Tricky one....how about filling in each box with the information requested?
Posted by: shy Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 20:26
Post #1500237
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 20:45)
Tricky one....how about filling in each box with the information requested?
Haha very good. Now I understand it’s the missing signature which is key. Done.
If cops visit?
Posted by: Logician Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 23:10
Post #1500256
You say you have supplied the information requested. If they ask you to sign it, you decline to do so, and opine that Scots law does not require that.
Posted by: shy Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 07:43
Post #1500276
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 00:10)
You say you have supplied the information requested. If they ask you to sign it, you decline to do so, and opine that Scots law does not require that.
Ok thanks Logician. For my own info, what is this law you speak of?
Posted by: southpaw82 Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 08:36
Post #1500285
Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.
Posted by: The Rookie Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 09:10
Post #1500290
Statute
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/172
A description
https://www.pattersonlaw.co.uk/motoring-offences/s-172-fail-to-provide-driver-identity/?gclid=CjwKCAjw67XpBRBqEiwA5RCocWZYIUB4bC6ezQeo2yZx2NLPHq32qanDhJ9I60OESZYzhAisr-miIBoCwQMQAvD_BwE
Posted by: TonyS Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 09:38
Post #1500294
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 00:10)
You say you have supplied the information requested. If they ask you to sign it, you decline to do so, and opine that Scots law does not require that.
If I understand correctly it's the missus who's returning this form, nominating herself but not signing. So it will be the missus that the cops will want to talk to. The OP's form was signed (I think). It's a little confusing because sometimes I think "I" means the OP himself and sometimes "I" means his missus.
Posted by: southpaw82 Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 11:14
Post #1500324
QUOTE (TonyS @ Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 10:38)
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 00:10)
You say you have supplied the information requested. If they ask you to sign it, you decline to do so, and opine that Scots law does not require that.
If I understand correctly it's the missus who's returning this form, nominating herself but not signing. So it will be the missus that the cops will want to talk to. The OP's form was signed (I think). It's a little confusing because sometimes I think "I" means the OP himself and sometimes "I" means his missus.
It’s ever a confusion on here, when posters conflate individual responsibilities.
Posted by: shy Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 16:57
Post #1500698
QUOTE (TonyS @ Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 10:38)
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 00:10)
You say you have supplied the information requested. If they ask you to sign it, you decline to do so, and opine that Scots law does not require that.
If I understand correctly it's the missus who's returning this form, nominating herself but not signing. So it will be the missus that the cops will want to talk to. The OP's form was signed (I think). It's a little confusing because sometimes I think "I" means the OP himself and sometimes "I" means his missus.
Yeah you’re right. I’m doing it on her behalf. So the first form was for me. Second for missus to be returned unsigned.
Posted by: The Rookie Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 12:07
Post #1500903
Unfortunately had we had the full picture at the start we would have advised delaying the driver nomination from you to the full 28 days permitted to buy more time.
Posted by: shy Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 18:57
Post #1502224
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 13:07)
Unfortunately had we had the full picture at the start we would have advised delaying the driver nomination from you to the full 28 days permitted to buy more time.
Isn’t enough of the picture is in the first wizard post?
Posted by: The Rookie Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 05:22
Post #1502293
No, it gave no indication at all you would be naming someone you would then seek to help avoid penalty, in fact where you can enter information you gave us nothing at all. It appeared you had a NIP and weren’t driving, you could have worked for a company or anything.
Still what is done is done.
Posted by: shy Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 16:36
Post #1507546
So I returned the document unsigned with a day left in the clock. I've today received a 'final reminder' along with a copy of the unsigned document. Along with it came a covering letter which is attached.
What's next?
Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 17:17
Post #1507559
They've kindly confirmed the response was received, and they will now use scare tactics to pressure you into signing the form. If you take the view that under Scots law the original reply you sent discharged your duties under section 172, further correspondence can be ignored.
Standard practice seems to be that Police Scotland will charge you with the offence under section 172, but the PF will drop the case before it goes to trial.
Posted by: The Rookie Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 18:22
Post #1507570
QUOTE (shy @ Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 17:36)
So I returned the document unsigned with a day left in the clock. I've today received a 'final reminder' along with a copy of the unsigned document. Along with it came a covering letter which is attached.
What's next?
By ‘I returned’ do you mean that or that the missus returned?
By I’ve received do you again me not you?
If the driver sent it and the driver has received the reply, then the usual advice is to reply politely declining their kind invitation, letter to arrive after about 3-4 weeks to hopefully put them off for a bit.
Posted by: shy Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 19:20
Post #1507596
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 19:22)
QUOTE (shy @ Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 17:36)
So I returned the document unsigned with a day left in the clock. I've today received a 'final reminder' along with a copy of the unsigned document. Along with it came a covering letter which is attached.
What's next?
By ‘I returned’ do you mean that or that the missus returned?
By I’ve received do you again me not you?
If the driver sent it and the driver has received the reply, then the usual advice is to reply politely declining their kind invitation, letter to arrive after about 3-4 weeks to hopefully put them off for a bit.
Yes to both although again I’m doing it on her behalf so for purposes of asking advice at this stage does it matter too much? . She’s now getting twitchy after this letter coming in
Is there a standard format to respond with? The worst thing that can happen is the cops come and she starts flapping so wouldn’t want to wind them up too much.
Also, is it the norm to get this far and get that letter?
Cheers
Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 19:37
Post #1507599
The police rely on people getting twitch and rolling over. It's not unheard of for them to turn up at the door to make a verbal s172 request.
Posted by: The Rookie Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 06:39
Post #1507634
QUOTE (shy @ Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 20:20)
Yes to both although again I’m doing it on her behalf so for purposes of asking advice at this stage does it matter too much? . She’s now getting twitchy after this letter coming in
Is there a standard format to respond with? The worst thing that can happen is the cops come and she starts flapping so wouldn’t want to wind them up too much.
Also, is it the norm to get this far and get that letter?
Please stick to what is accurate to avoid confusion, its her case, say what she did, otherwise we end up checking.
No standard format and absolutely no need for one, if in doubt post a proposed reply here before sending it.
If they turn up point out that a reply naming the driver has bean sent, the law is the law, winding them up (you/she won't unless you are unnecessarily obnoxious) won’t change anything.
That letter was pretty much guaranteed as you would know if you had read other threads as suggested.
Posted by: shy Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 08:14
Post #1507945
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 07:39)
QUOTE (shy @ Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 20:20)
Yes to both although again I’m doing it on her behalf so for purposes of asking advice at this stage does it matter too much? . She’s now getting twitchy after this letter coming in
Is there a standard format to respond with? The worst thing that can happen is the cops come and she starts flapping so wouldn’t want to wind them up too much.
Also, is it the norm to get this far and get that letter?
Please stick to what is accurate to avoid confusion, its her case, say what she did, otherwise we end up checking.
No standard format and absolutely no need for one, if in doubt post a proposed reply here before sending it.
If they turn up point out that a reply naming the driver has bean sent, the law is the law, winding them up (you/she won't unless you are unnecessarily obnoxious) won’t change anything.
That letter was pretty much guaranteed as you would know if you had read other threads as suggested.
Ok.
Proposed response:-
Dear Madam,
With reference to your letter dated xxx. Under Scots law, the NIP previously returned naming the driver discharged my duties under section 172.
Regards
XSo just to be clear on timeline:
-Me, RK, received NIP naming driver. I returned signed within the 28day window due to not following advice.
-Driver received NIP. Returned unsigned on day 27.
-Letter received to driver in post stating a signature is required.
A lot of the historical posts are from many years ago...is it still the case that going this route has never reached court?
Posted by: The Rookie Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 09:16
Post #1507967
I'd just go with
Dear Madam,
With reference to your letter dated xxx. The NIP previously returned naming the driver discharged my duties under section 172.
Regards
X
The bit about Scots law (should write Scottish anyway) isn't relevant nor necessarily correct.
Posted by: shy Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:14
Post #1508011
Will do. Funny how there's no deadline. "ASAP"
Should driver roll over out of fear, is the penalty fine worst than signing the form?
Posted by: The Rookie Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:17
Post #1508012
Well either an offence is already committed by going past 28 days unsigned or it has not, there is no time frame they can then impose.
In theory they could refer it to court (where the penalty will b e higher) rather than offering a fixed penalty, in reality we've not seen that happening.
Posted by: 666 Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:21
Post #1508015
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:16)
I'd just go with
Dear Madam,
With reference to your letter dated xxx. The NIP previously returned naming the driver discharged my duties under section 172.
Regards
X
The bit about Scots law (should write Scottish anyway) isn't relevant nor necessarily correct.
"Scots law" is the correct term. But, as you say, it's irrelevant.
Posted by: shy Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:27
Post #1508018
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:17)
Well either an offence is already committed by going past 28 days unsigned or it has not, there is no time frame they can then impose.
In theory they could refer it to court (where the penalty will be higher) rather than offering a fixed penalty, in reality we've not seen that happening.
Could ask the question in the response on whether an offence has been committed by not signing?
Can see the driver taking this early based on what's potentially involved
Posted by: The Rookie Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:44
Post #1508025
QUOTE (shy @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:27)
Could ask the question in the response on whether an offence has been committed by not signing?
I wouldn't, it will achieve nothing.
Posted by: shy Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 14:53
Post #1508444
Forgot to show the attached stating 'police officer will call to interview'.
Should this form be returned unsigned on day 27 along with drafted letter above? With them threatening a visit if there's no response, all bases covered?
Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 19:16
Post #1508495
What form?
You can do pretty much anything, including ignoring it, the sole point of writing back is to waste a bit of time while they process it, it serves no other purpose AT ALL.
Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 21:27
Post #1508551
QUOTE (shy @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 15:53)
Should this form be returned unsigned on day 27 along with drafted letter above? With them threatening a visit if there's no response, all bases covered?
To be honest IMO this letter shows that they're bluffing. If they wanted to charge you under s172, they already have all the evidence they need. To put this into context, in England they wouldn't bother coming round to your house, you'd just get the court paperwork in the post.
Police Scotland are known to occasionally turn up at someone's house, in which case the best approach is probably to refuse to talk to them - not even through a window or the letter box. They have no powers of entry in this situation, and eventually they'll get bored and will leave. I would also put some music or the TV on, so they cannot later claim they made a verbal s172 request to you.
Posted by: Mayhem007 Sat, 17 Aug 2019 - 08:39
Post #1508591
This question to everyone in the thread.
I take it the 6 month clock starts ticking from the date of the alleged offence and not the date NIPs were issued.
Posted by: Mayhem007 Sat, 17 Aug 2019 - 08:53
Post #1508594
For Shy.
If you live in Scotland then your not going to get a smooth ride. The police will knock on your door regularly and at odd hours. Some people have had the nightshift police knock on their doors.
Also, be prepared, whilst police may not be able to gain entry into your house, they can gain entry to unlocked doors if no one answers the door, all in the name for the safety of occupants.
There is nothing to stop the husband answering the door, if the wife isn't in or available for questioning. Be prepared for police on the odd occasion to sit outside your house. It happened to me in England, after half an hour they just left.
When the six months is up you can speak to them as much as you want. Just give your details and reply no comment to everything else. What you do before the 6 months deadline is beyond me, its just imperative that you don't see them at all and avoid them at all costs.
Posted by: Redivi Sat, 17 Aug 2019 - 11:41
Post #1508626
The six months clock for speeding starts from the date of the offence
The six months clock for an S172 offence starts 28 days after the NIP is served
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