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No seatbelt fine & insurance question.
Melchett
post Sat, 28 Jul 2018 - 11:29
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Hi guys, I've recently been fined for not wearing a seatbelt (don't ask)

As my insurance is due for renewal I declared it & my premium increased a little but then I got to wondering...

As there are no penalty points for this offence would the insurance co find out if I'd said nothing?

Cheers.
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post Sat, 28 Jul 2018 - 11:29
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 19:47
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Thank you for reviewing my case. I am aware of how valuable your time is and because of this sent in payment for a fixed penalty to the police as I accept I was guilty of the offence. Unfortunately due to XXX they declined to accept my fixed penalty and referred the case to the Single Justice Procedure.

As I was unable to take up the fixed penalty for reasons unconnected with the offence I would kindly ask you consider sentencing me at the fixed penalty equivalent of £100. I understand this is permitted on page 453 of your sentencing guidelines if you believe it to be appropriate. Love and kisses, Mr Melchett

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 19:49


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 13:11
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To answer your PM the exact wording is

"where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender"

So not being offered a fixed penalty isn't a bar to the court giving you an equivalent penalty. However, seeing as the worst case scenario is they decide not to, and you are no worse off.

As far why they didn't charge you with S172 it is guesswork. My guess would be that as they are relying on a technicality - you did provide enough information to identify the driver, but you didn't supply every piece they asked for as S172 mandates, they knew the CPS would drop it as not being in the public interest to prosecute.

Even if they did it has already been confirmed that you do not have to use their forms and it would be a long shot to argue that writing it on a separate piece of paper would count, but supplying your DL didn't.

But seeing as it seems primarily to play silly buggers then who knows


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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Melchett
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 16:39
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Thank you, I'll let you know how it goes.
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Melchett
post Wed, 8 Aug 2018 - 16:51
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A quick update...

I decided to email the police to be certain of the reason why I didn't receive a COFP, this is the reply....

QUOTE
I am in receipt of your email and note its comments.

Due to the Seat belt offence being captured by the Camera safety team and not an Officer issue, we are unable to raise a ticket, hence we need to prepare the file for court (Single Justice Procedure Notice).

You will need to make your plea online or by post within 3 weeks of the posting date.

This will still carry the same £100 fine and 0 penalty points, as you would with a fixed penalty.

Kind Regards


Is that normal?

This post has been edited by Melchett: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 - 20:36
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 8 Aug 2018 - 21:10
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It's not normal in the sense that most police forces are moving more and more towards decisions, and tickets, being issued by a central ticket office rather than by officers. Rather ironically almost certainly if an officer pulled someone not wearing a seatbelt they would fill out a TOR which would go to the ticket office to issue a ticket.

It's normal in the sense that they can apply almost any rules without needing to make any sense, and that it doesn't give you any recourse. It's also normal for them to have a naivety of how the court process works. If you do get a £100 fine then you will also have £115 of costs and surcharges as well which isn't equivalent as they suggest. They would have to give you a £70 for you not to be out of pocket. You also normally need to ask/remind the magistrates to sentence at that rate.


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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cp8759
post Wed, 8 Aug 2018 - 23:20
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QUOTE (Melchett @ Wed, 8 Aug 2018 - 17:51) *
A quick update...

I decided to email the police to be certain of the reason why I didn't receive a COFP, this is the reply....

QUOTE
I am in receipt of your email and note its comments.

Due to the Seat belt offence being captured by the Camera safety team and not an Officer issue, we are unable to raise a ticket, hence we need to prepare the file for court (Single Justice Procedure Notice).

You will need to make your plea online or by post within 3 weeks of the posting date.

This will still carry the same £100 fine and 0 penalty points, as you would with a fixed penalty.

Kind Regards


Is that normal?

They are not unable to issue a ticket and this is utter BS, but short of challenging the prosecution as an abuse of process (which would likely require a trip to the High Court), there isn't much you can do about it.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jlc
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 07:49
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From page 453 of the Mag's sentencing guidelines:

QUOTE
...where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence
itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point
should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be
imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in
these circumstances. A list of offences for which penalty notices are available, and the amount of
the penalty, is set out in Annex B.


It's not simply true that it will carry the same penalty. Not least court costs (£85) and surcharge (min £30)...

Best result would be a fine of £70, surcharge of £30 and no costs order, i.e. £100, but that's not guaranteed!


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Melchett
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 16:17
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Thanks chaps,

3 questions if you don't mind...

1) Is it worth sending a copy of the email to the court when asking for sentencing at fixed penalty levels? I would have thought so but....

2) I was intending using the website to enter my guilty plea as it's easier to edit/correct errors but is there an option to attach documents (the email)?

3) On page 5 of the SJPN there is an option to contest the Prosecutions application for costs, should I?

I must admit that I'll be pretty pee'd off if I have to pay £115 for something that looks to me like their error.
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 18:08
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 08:49) *
Best result would be a fine of £70, surcharge of £30 and no costs order, i.e. £100, but that's not guaranteed!

Hence the point I was making that the.camera team cannot possibly be right that the court will fine £100 and that would be equivalent to a fixed penalty.

OP it is up to you what you put. Personally I wouldn't and just put the camera office didn't offer you one for administrative reasons. It is best to keep things as simple as possible and I don't think there is any benefit to drawing attention to the fact the police deliberately chose not to give you a fixed penalty.

The courts also dislike the police telling them what to do and putting them in a bad mood, even directed at someone else, may not help.

From NewJudge's comments on here before the interpretation of fixed penalty equivalent seems to vary by area. Either

£100 fine + £85 costs + £30 victim surcharge = £215 or

£70 fine + zero costs + £30 surcharge = £100

If it is on an area basis I don't think you will have much chance of influencing which one you get, and I think it would go down like a lead balloon to put a "suggested" find value in your submission.

With that in mind I would just submit online.


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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Jlc
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 18:21
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QUOTE (Melchett @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 17:17) *
I must admit that I'll be pretty pee'd off if I have to pay £115 for something that looks to me like their error.

That would be an additional £115 to the fine itself...

However, it's not an 'error' - they don't have to issue a fixed penalty. (But the sentencing guidelines should apply so you are not disadvantaged by the administrative difficulties)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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