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FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ [NIP Wizard] Unsure driver - Average speed in Roadworks

Posted by: Anch Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:54
Post #1374784

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - February 2018
Date of the NIP: - 31 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 47 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M60 M/Way Clockwise Jct25, Bredbury, Stockport, UNITED KINGDOM
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Friend
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - The car belongs to a friend of mine that we borrowed to go to a family event.

It was pouring with rain, Early hours of the morning 01:08 AM My wife and I on the way back from a family event.
We are very careful with average speed and actually used cruise control to avoid, but did not realise we were in an average speed zone. As they are doing works currently i don't even know if there is street lighting in operation. Car was caught doing 66MPH in an average speed of 50MPH ( Driver probably assumed the limit was 70 MPH) - the thing is we changed drivers, so i am unsure if it was myself or my wife at that point. Tracing back from whats-app messages etc i can assume it was me but i am not sure.

I told my friend to say i was the driver as i thought i would be offered the drive awareness course but as it 66MPH they will not offer the course.
Is there anyone who can help with this please?

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:54:03 +0000

Posted by: BaggieBoy Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:59
Post #1374786

Yes just too fast for a course. Naming the most likely driver is not an issue. Saying you aren't sure will likely see you go to court.

Posted by: Anch Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 14:12
Post #1374792

Thanks for your fast response.

What would happen in court if its not 100% sure who was the driver.

Posted by: peterguk Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 14:28
Post #1374795

QUOTE (Anch @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:12) *
Thanks for your fast response.

What would happen in court if its not 100% sure who was the driver.

That would not be the charge. The charge would be failing to name the driver which would be 6 points and hefty fine. Successfully defending the charge is not impossible, but certainly not easy.

Not wanting to be rude, but so far, you've mentioned very little in the way of effort to work out who was driving.

Who started the journey? What time did you leave? Who was driving when you arrived at your destination? Where you you driving from? Driving to where?

You say you swapped drivers. Did you swap at a service station? Did you refuel at same time?

You know where you were caught so time to do some serious thinking with your partner.

Posted by: Anch Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:05
Post #1374806


Hi, thanks for your response.

Believe me we tried, We had driven up from London that afternoon and were returning that night- It was 1 AM over 2 months ago - In the dark and pouring weather. I know we stopped at a service station to swap driving ( she started initially) - I cannot for the life of me remember where, remember we are not from the North West, we live in London and didn't even know i was on the M60 or how i got there.. I know the M6 and M1.. We just followed Waze or google maps.
We did not refuel or go the shops at all.
As i mentioned in my original post, i suspect it was me based on some whats app messages but if i cannot for know who it was HONESTLY what is the law?

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:09
Post #1374810

Name the most likely driver. If 50:50 flip a coin.
You are not required to be 100% sure.
Do not name someoen you know did not drive.

The law AIUI is you are , as keeper, required to identify the driver OR show how, with reasnoable diligence, you could not do so. As pointed out that defence is difficutl to run, will REQUIRE you to go to court (of course, otherwise everyone woudl try it) and as you would expect courts are skeptical especially after some high profile people "got away" with the defence.

Posted by: NeverMind Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:47
Post #1374826

QUOTE (Anch @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 16:05) *
We just followed Waze or google maps.

Do you have location history enabled in Google Maps? It will show you which services you stopped at.

Check under "timeline" in the menu.

Posted by: Jlc Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 16:12
Post #1374830

QUOTE (Anch @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 16:05) *
...but if i cannot for know who it was HONESTLY what is the law?

Of course everyone is honest but the statutory defence says:
A person shall not be guilty of an offence by virtue of [requirement to give driver details] if he shows that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.

Whilst this is difficult it is not impossible and we have seem some 'success' cases of the bench being convinced. But the disparity of the outcomes (3 points £100 v 6 points + larger fine + costs + court attendance) makes it a consideration.

Posted by: Anch Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 08:39
Post #1374950

Thanks guys, Really appreciate it the device. i guess no matter the circumstances you do the crime you pay the time :-(

Before i summit, is there anywhere i can upload form and see if they have made ANY Errors that would invalidate the ticket OR does anyone know a argument that has helped them before in similar situation.
Is it like a local parking ticket?

Posted by: The Rookie Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 08:48
Post #1374952

Pointless, the requirements are directory, that is they have to convey certain information, they are far from the same rigidity that is required for council PCN's.

That you could complete the NIP wizard suggests they've got all they need on there.

I think as this was roadworks a court would be even more skeptical about someone being unable to ID the driver as its inherently more memorable than a free running/fully open motorway.

Posted by: Jlc Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 08:53
Post #1374954

QUOTE (Anch @ Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 09:39) *
Before i summit, is there anywhere i can upload form and see if they have made ANY Errors that would invalidate the ticket OR does anyone know a argument that has helped them before in similar situation.

You can provide redacted scans but it's unlikely there's any magic bullet.

'Loop holes' are mostly closed so you're be looking for a defence. That would generally be that the driver wasn't speeding (seems unlikely) or the signage or relevant order were defective.

The statutory defence around the driver identification, as above, is an option but a risky one imho. (Would likely throw away a simple CoFP for a day in court and 6 points etc.)

Posted by: Logician Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 09:47
Post #1374975

This is very different from a parking ticket, all that is needed is that you are provided with enough information to know where and when the alleged offence occurred, and you clearly do know. With roadworks, the signage will be moving to keep pace with the work, so this period of time after the event the situation that existed at the time cannot be verified, and it is most unlikely that there is any error in the order for the temporary speed limit on a motorway, but you could check. You were slightly too fast for a course, but well within the fixed penalty band, so resign yourself to that.

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