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FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ [NIP Wizard] NIP speed camera Taylor Hill, Lockwood, Huddersfield

Posted by: SickofScammers Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 13:47
Post #1669241

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2021
Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - o/s ref 413469414776, a616 woodhead road, south of jct with Taylor Hill Rd, (Bi Directional), between Lockwood Scar & Sunny Brow, Huddersfield
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Registered keeper is my daughter, but I use the car
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Dark evening, tired after a long day, had gone wrong way and put sat nav on, so now on an unfamiliar route at national speed limit.
It was dark and poorly lit, didn't see the change in speed restriction or any warning of cameras, as I came round a bend, the first I knew of it was a flash from a camera that nearly made me jump.
Noticed then very thin modern camera and small 30mph sign. I was doing 42mph, which felt safe, especially as I thought I was in a 60 or at worts a 40.

My daughter is registered keeper and I don't want to cause her any issues, and I possibly deserve what I got, but it seemed a sneaky place to have a speed camera on what felt like a national speed limit road.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:


Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 13:47:28 +0000

Posted by: 666 Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 13:55
Post #1669242

That road has street lighting, so does definitely NOT feel like an NSL road. The lighting indicates a 30 mph limit, unless there are signs to the contrary.

As per the NIP wizard, you need do nothing until you receive a communication addressed to you. Your daughter must reply naming the driver.

Posted by: morrisman Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 14:03
Post #1669244

Area seems to have a compliant set of street lighting which should have shown you it was a 30 limit and, rather sportingly, there is a https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6286352,-1.7986273,3a,37.5y,28.62h,88.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb0IlVQliLzr1zCbIQTg-Sw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 before the camera

Posted by: SickofScammers Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 14:21
Post #1669247

Yes, I probably don't have a leg to stand on, just thought there may be some way of explaining how I didn't spot it e.g.
- they don't switch the streetlights on any more on that stretch
- the trees block the signs and / or streetlights

I suppose I was just tired and not paying attention to my speed.
My daughter will have to name me as the driver as that's the truth, so I will have an NIP incoming.

Thanks for the quick responses.

Posted by: Jlc Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 14:35
Post #1669248

A course would be offered for that excess.

Posted by: andy_foster Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 15:25
Post #1669253

What time of evening was this?
Arguably if this was during the hours of darkness, a series of inert lamp posts which does not light the street is not a compliant system of street lighting.

Posted by: SickofScammers Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 16:17
Post #1669268

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 15:25) *
What time of evening was this?
Arguably if this was during the hours of darkness, a series of inert lamp posts which does not light the street is not a compliant system of street lighting.


20:08

I don't know if the street lights were on or off.
I just know I was surprised, and can't give an explanation, other than tiredness from a long working day, mostly outdoors.

Posted by: Ahelpinggand Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 18:42
Post #1669283

I'd suggest returning at the same time to see if they are indeed lit

Posted by: SickofScammers Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 14:52
Post #1669602

QUOTE (Ahelpinggand @ Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 18:42) *
I'd suggest returning at the same time to see if they are indeed lit


good idea, will try to do next few days .... looking at their image (details removed, license plate blurred)



it's hard to tell but the streetlights might be turned off, assuming the light round the car is from the flash on the camera .... also there seems to be a car behind me with no lights on?

Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:01
Post #1669605

It's not unusual for night photos to look like that as the flash and filter drown out the streetlighting.

Posted by: baroudeur Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:46
Post #1669623

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 16:25) *
What time of evening was this?
Arguably if this was during the hours of darkness, a series of inert lamp posts which does not light the street is not a compliant system of street lighting.


Councils have been switching off street lighting in many places for economy reasons. Would a power cut affect the limit? If these conditions made the 30 limit unenforceable surely it would be a well-known fact?

Posted by: SickofScammers Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 07:53
Post #1669748

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:46) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 16 Oct 2021 - 16:25) *
What time of evening was this?
Arguably if this was during the hours of darkness, a series of inert lamp posts which does not light the street is not a compliant system of street lighting.


Councils have been switching off street lighting in many places for economy reasons. Would a power cut affect the limit? If these conditions made the 30 limit unenforceable surely it would be a well-known fact?


good point, it's a bit out of my way to go back there - does anyone know if it will be helpful?

Posted by: The Rookie Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 08:34
Post #1669754

If the street lighting is off you may have a defence of the limit not being adequately conveyed, but it's not a certain defence and will require some homework and even then no guarantee of success. If you don't want to follow it through there seems little point starting the process.

Posted by: andy_foster Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 19:12
Post #1669947

If there is no street lighting and no TRO then the limit would be the NSL

AFAIK whether lack of a system of lighting the street would mean that a system of lamp posts did not constitute a compliant system of street lighting has not been decided by a court of record.

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 21:55
Post #1669959

I don't think what matters is whether there is a lack of lighting. The legislation speaks of a system of lighting, it does not mention whether the system of lighting is illuminated or not.

Now, if the lighting were hidden from view for example due to being engulfed in vegetation, such that when it is turned off a motorist could not know that it is there, then there is a legitimate question about whether the limit is adequately conveyed (as Logician has previously pointed out, if the street lights fulfil the same function as speed limit signs, then logically they must be visible in order to convey the limit).

If the system of street lighting being switched off makes the limit unenforceable, then it would mean that a restricted road is not a restricted road in the middle of the day, which is obviously absurd.

Posted by: Ahelpinggand Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 15:30
Post #1670049

Indeed.

The point being however that if driving in darkness and there are no visible street lights because they're off and obscured from vision the question is whether the limit was adequately conveyed.

Street lights being switched off I can't see being a get out clause on its own as CP points out above but the question of the limit being adequately conveyed does spring to mind.


Posted by: andy_foster Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 20:51
Post #1670099

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 22:55) *
The legislation speaks of a system of lighting, it does not mention whether the system of lighting is illuminated or not.


You seem to have a far wider interpretation of the word "lighting" than I do.

There is case law (obiter) which says something along the lines of a single lamp being defective, or slightly outside the 200 yards would not invalidate the limit as it would be de minimis. Whilst not strictly binding, this would appear to be somewhat at odds with an interpretation of street lighting that did not require the street ever to be lit.

Posted by: Logician Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 22:47
Post #1670133

If I have an iron and ironing board, I have a system of ironing, if I gradually start replcing my clothes with ones that do not require ironing, I still have a system of ironing even though I use it less and less. If I finally reach the position that all my clothes are non-iron, and the iron and ironing board are gathering dust in a cupboard, I still have the possibility of ironing if the need arises, I still possess a system of ironing, even though I never actually use it.
A system of street lighting that could be operated but never is, must in my view still be a system of street lighting. However, if the local authority decides no longer to maintain the lights and they gradually become non-functional, then there comes a point when there is no longer at least one working light every 200 yards, and the system is no longer compliant. As in the dead parrot sketch, it is an ex-system, it has ceased to be.

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 22:52
Post #1670134

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 21:51) *
There is case law (obiter) which says something along the lines of a single lamp being defective, or slightly outside the 200 yards would not invalidate the limit as it would be de minimis. Whilst not strictly binding, this would appear to be somewhat at odds with an interpretation of street lighting that did not require the street ever to be lit.

As Logician rightly explains, a complaint and fully functional system of street lighting that just happens to be switched off is still a compliant and fully functional system of street lighting. The issue of how long it's been turned off for is irrelevant, as there is no way a motorist could know if the light have been turned off because it's the dead of night or whether they've been off for months or even years.

Posted by: Irksome Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 08:35
Post #1670409

If the street lighting is off in the hours of darkness how can the motorist know that there is a compliant system of street lighting?

Posted by: Jlc Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:13
Post #1670442

QUOTE (Irksome @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 09:35) *
If the street lighting is off in the hours of darkness how can the motorist know that there is a compliant system of street lighting?

You'd pass a terminal sign or if starting within the limit your headlights would allow you to see the system (or repeaters to the contrary).

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:45
Post #1670491

QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 11:13) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 09:35) *
If the street lighting is off in the hours of darkness how can the motorist know that there is a compliant system of street lighting?

You'd pass a terminal sign or if starting within the limit your headlights would allow you to see the system (or repeaters to the contrary).

Actually no terminal sign is required, but as you say your headlights would allow you to see the street lighting columns.

Posted by: SickofScammers Thu, 11 Nov 2021 - 22:25
Post #1675048

it turns out they don't switch the streetlights on on that stretch of road ..... this will explain why I didn't realise I was in a 30 but is that not a defence?

I've now had the NIP dated 19/10/21 received 10/11/21 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Posted by: NewJudge Thu, 11 Nov 2021 - 22:42
Post #1675052

QUOTE (SickofScammers @ Thu, 11 Nov 2021 - 22:25) *
it turns out they don't switch the streetlights on on that stretch of road ..... this will explain why I didn't realise I was in a 30 but is that not a defence?

I've now had the NIP dated 19/10/21 received 10/11/21 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?

To be a restricted road, it has to have a system of street lighting. I don't think there is any requirement for them to be switched on.

The NIP you speak of, is it the second one (the first having gone to your daughter)? Only the first NIP has any time constraints. In fact it is only the first NIP that is required at all. Subsequent NIPS are provided as a courtesy. If it is the first (addressed to your daughter) she must respond to the request for driver's details or she will commit a separate more serious offence. But you may have a defence to a speeding allegation as a NIP must be served on the RK within 14 days of the alleged offence. The problem is, there is an assumption that it is served two days after posting and you will have to prove that it wasn't.

Posted by: SickofScammers Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 11:59
Post #1675134

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 11 Nov 2021 - 22:42) *
QUOTE (SickofScammers @ Thu, 11 Nov 2021 - 22:25) *
it turns out they don't switch the streetlights on on that stretch of road ..... this will explain why I didn't realise I was in a 30 but is that not a defence?

I've now had the NIP dated 19/10/21 received 10/11/21 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?

To be a restricted road, it has to have a system of street lighting. I don't think there is any requirement for them to be switched on.

The NIP you speak of, is it the second one (the first having gone to your daughter)? Only the first NIP has any time constraints. In fact it is only the first NIP that is required at all. Subsequent NIPS are provided as a courtesy. If it is the first (addressed to your daughter) she must respond to the request for driver's details or she will commit a separate more serious offence. But you may have a defence to a speeding allegation as a NIP must be served on the RK within 14 days of the alleged offence. The problem is, there is an assumption that it is served two days after posting and you will have to prove that it wasn't.


Yes, it's a 2nd NIP
My daughter responded to the first one with my details and I have just received this one dated 19/10/21
It seems pretty clear on it that they want me to respond within 28 days to confirm my details?

Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 12:29
Post #1675141

QUOTE (SickofScammers @ Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 11:59) *
It seems pretty clear on it that they want me to respond within 28 days to confirm my details?

That would normally be the case, yes.

As far as I'm aware there is no case law around the need for the physical system of lighting to be illuminated to count as an actual system of street lightning. Of course when writing the statute parliament didn't really consider the possibility that an authority would go to the expense of installing a system of lighting and not then power it on.

The law does require a limit to be adequately conveyed but which way a court would roll with this is no more predictable in my eyes than a coin toss outcome.

Posted by: SickofScammers Sun, 12 Dec 2021 - 23:19
Post #1681938

I have received a letter from West Yorls Police with 3 options:

1. Course
2. £100 fixed penalty
3. Court

I'm guessing the advice is to do the course?
How much do they charge?

Posted by: FuzzyDuck Sun, 12 Dec 2021 - 23:55
Post #1681944

Usually around £95.

Posted by: IanJohnsonWS14 Mon, 13 Dec 2021 - 07:57
Post #1681964

If you think, and some here choose not to, streetlights are turned off during the day. That doesn’t mean the 30 limit isn’t enforceable .

Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 13 Dec 2021 - 08:30
Post #1681967

QUOTE (IanJohnsonWS14 @ Mon, 13 Dec 2021 - 07:57) *
If you think, and some here choose not to, streetlights are turned off during the day. That doesn’t mean the 30 limit isn’t enforceable .

Which misses the point completely when it comes to it being dark and adequately conveyed.

Note I'm not saying it would automatically be a defence, just that you missed the point.

Posted by: Fluffykins Mon, 13 Dec 2021 - 14:37
Post #1682082

QUOTE (Irksome @ Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 08:35) *
If the street lighting is off in the hours of darkness how can the motorist know that there is a compliant system of street lighting?


Oooh. Schroedinger's street lights

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