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Yellow Box PCN - Should I appeal?, Stopped in junction for a few seconds because of car in front
Jay123
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 10:28
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Hi,

I received a PCN today and the contravention is 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited (camera enforcement). I would like to know if this can be challenged on the grounds of the following reasons (or any other reasons that you may think is appropriate):

- The car in front stopped abruptly
- My front of the car had crossed the yellow box but my rear wheel got trapped in the yellow box
- It was around 8 seconds before I moved on
- I had to wait there as I had to turn right at the junction.

Would be great if you could advise me if I could successfully appeal against the PCN. I can share the PCN copy and fine to share the video clip too - the file size for the PCN is over 3 MB, so not sure how to upload as the max. single upload is only 1MB.

Thanks for your help.

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post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 10:28
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John U.K.
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 10:58
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For the video (the evidence in YBJ cases) try a free external hosting site and post link here.

For docs etc.
Try this:
Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr, which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.
Redact/obscure personal details, PCN no. Reg No.

LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

Also post up a GSV (Google Street View) link to the location.

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 10:59
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Jay123
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 12:07
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Thanks John U.K. Please find below the scanned letter




The Googlemap link is as follows. The location is at the junction of Romford Road and Carlton Road

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Romford...#33;4d0.0450304

The video link is:

https://payit.newham.gov.uk/payments/Parkin.../0010152762.mp4
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 12:53
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The PCN hasn't posted please try again. Something caused a sudden stop but the video does not show what, but the car in front pulls out to the right after a few seconds. What happened?
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Neil B
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 13:03
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 13:53) *
The PCN hasn't posted please try again. Something caused a sudden stop but the video does not show what, but the car in front pulls out to the right after a few seconds. What happened?

The car in front was always indicating to turn right.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Gan
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 13:07
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It looks like the car in front of you turning right into Salisbury Road left the signalling very late but don't think it provides a defence

Tinypic resizes pictures but you could give it a sporting chance by rescanning the PCN at 72 dpi
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Jay123
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 13:40
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I have attached the PCN once again. Please check if this helps. Thanks
Attached File(s)
Attached File  PCN.pdf ( 202.72K ) Number of downloads: 46
 
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Jay123
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 10:39
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Hi,

I have uploaded the video clip and the PCN details. Please can you review and let me know if and how I and challenge. Thanks for your help.
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Neil B
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 10:44
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I just see a clear contravention.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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John U.K.
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 10:48
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Where does the video show you at 16:14 (=16:14:00)
The time of the alleged contravention n the PCN?
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Jay123
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 07:32
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Hi John U.K.

At the time of contravention I was on Romford / Carlton Road junction as indicated by the video clip.

Please let me know what defence I can provide against the contravention.
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paulajayne
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 07:50
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QUOTE (Jay123 @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 08:32) *
Hi John U.K.

At the time of contravention I was on Romford / Carlton Road junction as indicated by the video clip.

Please let me know what defence I can provide against the contravention.



Error

QUOTE (John U.K. @ Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 11:48) *
Where does the video show you at 16:14 (=16:14:00)
The time of the alleged contravention n the PCN?



NO -----it is 16:17 on the PCN.

This post has been edited by paulajayne: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 07:49
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Jay123
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 08:26
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That's right. The time was of contravention was 16:17 and what's indicated on the PCN is correct. Is that what you were looking for John.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 08:48
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QUOTE (Jay123 @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 09:26) *
That's right. The time was of contravention was 16:17 and what's indicated on the PCN is correct. Is that what you were looking for John.



A PCN must state the reason a CEO believes that a contravention occurs. AT 16.17 your car was not in the video so how could that belief be held
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hcandersen
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 09:26
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As I understand it, a PCN just needs to give the owner the mandatory info with sufficient accuracy, and IMO this does. What next, PCNs with seconds?

IMO, no hope at adj on this point.

Pay the discount as the evidence shows you in contravention.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 10:41
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Rather unlucky with the car turning right - I would be inclined to try an appeal on this as when you entered the box that car was clearing but then stopped.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 11:12
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 10:26) *
As I understand it, a PCN just needs to give the owner the mandatory info with sufficient accuracy, and IMO this does. What next, PCNs with seconds?

IMO, no hope at adj on this point.

Pay the discount as the evidence shows you in contravention.


It is an argument that has prevailed in the past. I would not put it forward on it's own but what we cannot see ATM is the PCN so we don't know if it contains the mandatory information

OP please post ALL of the PCN in a format that can be read
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John U.K.
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 11:43
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QUOTE
Hi John U.K.
Please let me know what defence I can provide against the contravention.


PaceHCA (and some Councils do use seconds on YBJ PCNs), let me explain the timing point a little further.

The time of the alleged contravention on the PCN is 16:17 (=16:17:00)

At that time you were not in the box and could not have been in contravention.

N.B. Some Adjudicators have accepted this point, others have rejected it.
If making representationsl, you need to consider the timing point carefully. I would not make representations solely on that point, but if doing so, would include it.
My argument is that if you arrive at 16:17:15 at a train station for a train advertised to depart at 16:17 and find the train has departed you have no cause for complaint or action against the train company.
-------
Also
The video shows you stopped from 16:17:15 until 16:17:22 - some 7 seconds. You could try making reps on the de minimis argument, but bear in mind that the norm for that is under 5 seconds, and much would depend on how sympathetic an adjudicator was on the hearing day - the Council are unlikely to give way... and the car in from was signalling a right turn when you entered the box.

Unless the Council guarantee to re-offer/place on hold the discount for reps made within the discount period, paying the discount now looks attractive.

Was there anything below the second photo on the second page of the PCN? An what was on the enclosed 'How to pay' leaflet??
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hcandersen
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 12:39
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Adjudicators' decisions have been based on facts and interpretation of the law. If for example a PCN stated 16.17.00 then that would not be the same as 16.17.

All that the PCN is required to state is the grounds on which the charge is payable. The Act does not prescribe the grounds in minute detail, this is something that has developed over time through case law and adjudication key cases. But IMO as this PCN only gives hours and minutes then an argument that it is invalid because it doesn't give seconds would not succeed.

If this authority re-offer the discount in the event of unsuccessful reps, then these should be submitted. Otherwise there's a risk.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 12:40
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Incandescent
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 19:25
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Surely if a few seconds gets councils shdloads of money they should give time of contravention to the exact second ?
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