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A conundrum or 'Grey area'
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post Sun, 24 Jan 2021 - 23:45
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We all know that with the exception of motorways if there are streetlights the speed limit is 30MPH unless signposted otherwise.

If you are travelling southbound on the A1M in Hertfordshire, as you get towards the junction with the M25, there are streetlights. No problem because its a motorway so the NSL applies, however after the slip road to South Mimms roundabout, the road changes to become the A1 which is a dual carriageway. However the streetlights remain and no speed limit is signposted. You have to go about ½ mile to just past where the slip road from the roundabout joins the main carriageway where you find NSL signs.

So: What is the speed limit between the start of the A1 and the NSL signs. Presumably it drops from 70 to 30. If however I were to slow down to 30 to 'comply with the lower limit' it would most likely cause an accident.

So what is the actual speed limit on that short stretch of road?



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post Sun, 24 Jan 2021 - 23:45
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 02:07
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At least last time I was down there they had put cabins in front of the end of motorway sign. Without the sign obscured then it would come down to adequate guidance. I suspect seeing as you could prove almost 100% of drivers were significantly exceeding the limit then adequate guidance wasn't given.

It does raise an interesting question though - if you were pinged in a "lucrative" location and did a speed survey showing >90% of drivers also broke the speed limit, whether the prosecution could claim adequate guidance was given. If it supposedly was it would mean almost all drivers ignored adequate guidance, which does not fit in with the "careful and competent" motorist so beloved of magistrates.
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big_mac
post Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 04:11
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it's not that unusual to have a stretch of obviously NSL road with a section of streetlighting, but no NSL signage.

In the real world, police aren't looking to be dicks about it.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 07:54
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Depends if there is a TRO in place or not. If there is a TRO in place raising the limit to 70 then that is the limit and the defective signage doesn't affect that.

It's likely yet another place where they screwed up and added lighting with no intent to impact the speed limit and simply 'forgot' to raise a TRO and install signs, it won't be the first (there have been LOTS of similar examples) and probably won't be the last. I had similar near me, they are street lighting at a junction (3 lane dual carriageway) with TRO and NSL signs but then extended the street lighting back about 1/2 mile to cover the previous junction and 'forgot' the need for a TRO and signage, took 2 years to resolve as after raising the issue they changed the road management contractor and the issue didn't get passed from one to the other so had to start the process all over again.

Whether the police/CPS would consider it in the public interest to prosecute is open to debate, I'd guess not, they probably aren't even aware it may be a 30 (in my above case no cop car ever slowed for the start of the accidental 30 limit).

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 07:56


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cp8759
post Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 09:24
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If you give me a link to the exact location I'll get them to put signs in.


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essexd
post Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 17:45
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 09:24) *
If you give me a link to the exact location I'll get them to put signs in.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6837439,-...6384!8i8192
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cp8759
post Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 19:27
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QUOTE (essexd @ Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 17:45) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 09:24) *
If you give me a link to the exact location I'll get them to put signs in.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6837439,-...6384!8i8192

I'll let you know how I get on.


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Korting
post Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 19:28
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Thank you CP
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roythebus
post Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 23:16
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It looks like it would have a lower limit than NSL due to the roadworks.

Certainly going the other way the NSL is somewhere around the Borhamwood turn. I only usually go from Mill hill towards Souht Mimms at night, never further north than Souht Mimms, that's where the buses are parked!
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cp8759
post Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 16:37
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Took a couple of rounds of correspondence but finally got this back today:
I’m sorry for the misinterpretation of your previous email. We appreciate that this must’ve been frustrating for you having to contact us again about same issue.

You’re correct in saying that NSL signs are required along the A1M. Our signage teams are currently working with the junction improvement programme to incorporate the signs being installed in the area within the next month.

We appreciate your patience whilst this is being addressed.
If the issue is still outstanding in 5 or 6 weeks bump the thread and I'll chase them.


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