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Is undertaking legal?, It is not illegal...
Unzippy
post Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 14:03
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https://bikerandbike.co.uk/undertaking-is-not-illegal/

QUOTE
and the courts are now recognising this and have found in favour of riders who have undertaken, where before the rider may have decided against making a claim on the basis that they believed that they committed an offence.


I thnk I'd like to see these cases referenced.

This post has been edited by Unzippy: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 14:03
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post Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 14:03
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yen_powell
post Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 14:42
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QUOTE (Unzippy @ Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 14:03) *
https://bikerandbike.co.uk/undertaking-is-not-illegal/

QUOTE
and the courts are now recognising this and have found in favour of riders who have undertaken, where before the rider may have decided against making a claim on the basis that they believed that they committed an offence.


I thnk I'd like to see these cases referenced.
I'd be adding about 15 minutes to my daily journey if I didn't use the M11 undertaking lane. Honestly, on some days if you took a picture of the traffic you'd think lane 3 was the inside lane and we drive on the right.
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peterguk
post Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 17:25
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"Is undertaking legal?, It is not illegal..."

AFAIK, it doesn't exist as an offence, therefore has never been illegal.


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666
post Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 17:45
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Note that "one of the UK’s leading experts on motorcycle safety and road law" quotes the wrong definition for careless driving.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 17:46
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It's illegal if it is careless, inconsiderate, or dangerous. It's not a stand alone offence though.


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peterguk
post Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 17:55
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 17:46) *
It's illegal if it is careless, inconsiderate, or dangerous.


That has always been my understanding.


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Unzippy
post Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 07:04
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What would a legal undertake look like?

Lane one, under the speed limit, appropiate for the conditions, no swerving or random braking or accelerating?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 11:25
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Yup, passing a CLOC member using lane 1 driving in a safe manner would 'seem to be' completely legal.

Noting that careless driving is very subjective.


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StationCat
post Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 13:11
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QUOTE (Unzippy @ Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 07:04) *
What would a legal undertake look like?

Lane one, under the speed limit, appropiate for the conditions, no swerving or random braking or accelerating?

Highway Code Rule 268

Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.


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spanner345
post Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 14:02
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QUOTE (StationCat @ Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 13:11) *
QUOTE (Unzippy @ Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 07:04) *
What would a legal undertake look like?

Lane one, under the speed limit, appropiate for the conditions, no swerving or random braking or accelerating?

Highway Code Rule 268

Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.


The highway code is not the law!


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666
post Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 14:23
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QUOTE (spanner345 @ Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 14:02) *
QUOTE (StationCat @ Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 13:11) *
QUOTE (Unzippy @ Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 07:04) *
What would a legal undertake look like?

Lane one, under the speed limit, appropiate for the conditions, no swerving or random braking or accelerating?

Highway Code Rule 268

Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.


The highway code is not the law!


No, but the Road Traffic Act 1988 is, and says "A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or criminal ....) be relied upon by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negative any liability which is in question in those proceedings."

I'd suggest that ignoring Rule 268 is not the act of a careful and competent driver, and hence meets the definition of careless driving.
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spanner345
post Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 14:56
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"A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or criminal ....) be relied upon by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negative any liability which is in question in those proceedings."

A section in the highway code where a law is broken, the law is quoted. Rule 268 does not have this.

Also wording changes from do not to MUST NOT.

This post has been edited by spanner345: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 14:59


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DancingDad
post Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 23:55
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QUOTE (spanner345 @ Wed, 22 Mar 2017 - 14:56) *
"A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or criminal ....) be relied upon by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negative any liability which is in question in those proceedings."

A section in the highway code where a law is broken, the law is quoted. Rule 268 does not have this.

Also wording changes from do not to MUST NOT.


Accept that fully and cannot imagine a case getting to court based simply on the Highway Code.
But can imagine a case getting to court where the Highway Code is cited in support of careless, dangerous or inconsiderate driving.

Far too many people sit in the wrong lane and many now seem to regard undertaking as the norm, both are wrong if not illegal as such.
Common examples of the generally pee poor driving standards on the road.
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silverfox60017
post Thu, 23 Mar 2017 - 08:16
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cuople of senences tken, possibly out of context!!!

keep up with traffic in your lane

Scenario

lane 2/3 has the normal lemmings in it doing less than NSL

L1 however is clear as far as a mile ahead, there is traffic in it


Therefore i can go past at the NSL to catch the traffic ahead of me and keep up with it?


Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtakes


Scenario 2

as 1 but L3 is clear and there is one or more of the lemmings

I am in L1 gaining, therefore in order to overtake 'legally' i must 'weave' from 1-2-3-2-1 to pass them!

I found this whilst not official it does explain such a move as weaving!!!


Weaving Across Lanes Explained. When operating a motor vehicle, it is sometimes necessary to cross into another lane. Whether you're avoiding an obstacle on the highway, a pothole or just need to move into the passing lane to get around a slow-moving vehicle, it is not always a traffic offense to weave across lanes.
Weaving Across Lanes Explained - What Is Failure To Maintain Lane?
www.failuretomaintainlane.com/weavingacrosslanesexplained.html


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TheDisapprovingB...
post Fri, 24 Mar 2017 - 16:34
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My understanding has always been broadly in line with the HC. In a nutshell, if you're holding your speed in Lane 1, and happen to pass a middle lane hogger, I wouldn't say that was usually going to be careless or dangerous. If you're sitting behind somebody in lane 3 and drop into lane 1 or 2 to fly past them, that very probably is.
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roythebus
post Mon, 27 Mar 2017 - 20:00
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The HC also says that you should drive in the left lane and that lanes 2 and 3 are used for overtsking. In my view those that do not move back to lane 1 after overtaking should be done for careless driving.

This post has been edited by roythebus: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 - 20:52
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