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FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ Bus Gate, Wapping High Street

Posted by: jb100 Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:15
Post #1542929

This is my first experience of a "Bus Gate", note there is no "Gate" and the signage around this one is very poor, forums seemingly agree; poor signage, odd red line road markings, "lots of people are driving through oblivious", which must be testament to how poor the signage is!
The charge does not appear to be clear on the PCN (no code number) and does the LA have to specify which vehicles are prohibited (buses are allowed through)?
Any advise on this very much appreciated.


Posted by: Incandescent Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 18:46
Post #1543013

AFAIK, no, it doesn't. You say the signage is deficient, so give us a GSV link so we can look. Also tell us what confused you and caused you to pass the Buses Only sign.

Posted by: stamfordman Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 21:01
Post #1543045

Couple of other cases at this new one:


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=132436


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=132535

Posted by: jb100 Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 12:52
Post #1543136

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 18:46) *
AFAIK, no, it doesn't. You say the signage is deficient, so give us a GSV link so we can look. Also tell us what confused you and caused you to pass the Buses Only sign.


Thank you Incandescent.
Tower Hamlets put the Bus Gate in place in Nov-19 so it does not appear in GVS.
A link to the image of the sign is below, please note this image is from another post, probably Nov-19, and the tape may have been removed since as the timing of my PCN was 18:12pm.
There is no Buses Only signage.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhyUd-MJOW2igrBR5kiJZIF_mOPIEg?e=UB6BKF

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 21:01) *
Couple of other cases at this new one:


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=132436


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=132535


Thank you Stamfordman.
Yes I looked at both cases, the timing one very unreasonable of Tower Hamlets to issue a PCN over a 1 minute infringement!
The other has similarities.

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 17:19
Post #1543606

Can you post the video please.

Posted by: Twistededge Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 00:40
Post #1543686

I live in Wapping, so took some photos when I was out running...

These are the red lines accross the road at mini roundabout -- these are only on the east to west section as you drive through the gate.



These are the signs for this section; they are not illuminated - they've just been caught by my flash...



-----------------------------------------------------

Further back, (500 metres at a rough guess) there is another sign, the only one that actually calls it a "bus gate" but doesn't say anything else



----------------------------------

This is the same roundabout from the other approach -- no road markings, and a sign that is only visible the minute you drive through the gate, when you turn left.



There is the sign for the above -- a good distance away -- it's dimly illuminated (the light isn't quite straight) and (guessing) about 20 metres or so before the roundabout (look closely and you can see the blue mini roundabout sign in the distance):


Posted by: jb100 Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 16:12
Post #1543972

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 17:19) *
Can you post the video please.


Unfortunately video does not appear to play, it seems one has to call the council to arrange a viewing!

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 00:40) *
I live in Wapping, so took some photos when I was out running...

These are the red lines accross the road at mini roundabout -- these are only on the east to west section as you drive through the gate.



These are the signs for this section; they are not illuminated - they've just been caught by my flash...



-----------------------------------------------------

Further back, (500 metres at a rough guess) there is another sign, the only one that actually calls it a "bus gate" but doesn't say anything else



----------------------------------

This is the same roundabout from the other approach -- no road markings, and a sign that is only visible the minute you drive through the gate, when you turn left.



There is the sign for the above -- a good distance away -- it's dimly illuminated (the light isn't quite straight) and (guessing) about 20 metres or so before the roundabout (look closely and you can see the blue mini roundabout sign in the distance):




Thank you Twistededge, very helpful indeed, seems signage has been increased including new signs on The Highway.

Posted by: Twistededge Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 07:50
Post #1544324

QUOTE (jb100 @ Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 16:12) *
Thank you Twistededge, very helpful indeed, seems signage has been increased including new signs on The Highway.


They have, but in my mind they are still confusing.

A bus gate should have a picture of a white bus in a blue circular background -- one council official tried to argue with me on this point, stating that it isn't a "true bus gate', but maybe he hadn't seen the sign calling it a bus gate.

The red lines are nowhere in the regs -- I don't know if they are allowed extra lines, but I would have thought they'd still need to be clear rather than dark red.

The signs are largely not illuminated (not sure if they need to be) or visible in a normal driver's range of vision (very high).

Some signs are a very long way from the actual cutoff point.




Posted by: Mad Mick V Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 09:42
Post #1544345

They can use the flying motorbike sign for a bus gate--there is a famous Oxford case.

The order notice indicates that this is an experimental bus gateway "being a point ‘no motor vehicles except local buses’ restriction".

The contravention given on the PCN is failure to comply with a prohibition on motor vehicles which rather truncates the above description but fits the usual requirements of the flying motorbike sign.

Unfortunately the flying motorbike sign (Diagram 619) is not a Sect 36 sign else we could have argued a Sect 36 V TMO defence.

If the speed limit is 20mph the signs don't have to be illuminated although it seems particularly dark at the bus gate.

There are a number of things which might be exploitable:-

1) I think the signage is totally inadequate to demonstrate to a diligent motorist that a bus gate exists. There are no road markings one would usually associate with a bus gate, the advanced warning signs appear to be some way distant from the roundabout, the lack of illumination is shocking and IMO the Council fail in their duty under LATOR 1996 to---- place on or near the road such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road. Remember this is a timed restriction which includes hours of darkness in the winter.

2) We are dealing with a bus gate so the PCN "charge" should indicate buses. It reads that the recipient went through a no entry sign which is daft.The contravention given is not sufficient to explain what the restriction entails.

Mick

Posted by: Twistededge Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 18:30
Post #1544439

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 09:42) *
If the speed limit is 20mph the signs don't have to be illuminated although it seems particularly dark at the bus gate.

It is 20mph for most of Tower Hamlets' backstreets, but there are no repeater signs around here (AFAIK), just speed bumps and cobbles.

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 09:42) *
2) We are dealing with a bus gate so the PCN "charge" should indicate buses.
I noticed today that there are yellow rectangular signs along the highway warning of a bus gate in Wapping High Street.

As far as I'm aware, the only sign in Wapping itself, that actually uses the word "bus gate", is the blue one photographed above about halfway between the gate and the station.

Posted by: stamfordman Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 18:40
Post #1544442

Tower Hamlets is another borough-wide 20 mph zone bar TFL red routes.

Posted by: Mad Mick V Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 19:45
Post #1544451

It would be good if someone took a photo of the signs without a flash--that would show how inadequate they are.
Mick

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 19:47
Post #1544731

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 19:45) *
It would be good if someone took a photo of the signs without a flash--that would show how inadequate they are.

I go running around Wapping most evenings, so consider it done...

A bit blurry without the flash, and the low-light capabilities of my phone still seems to make them appear brighter than they actually are -- but hopefully helpful...



Warning along the Highway, heading west before Glamis Road -- there are a few of these along the Highway in various places in both directions.


Entry accross Glamis Road, from the Highway


Warning by the station heading west - if you can't see it, the number says 700 yards.


Warning along Wapping High Street -- roughly halfway between station and gate. As far as I know, the only one in central Wapping that actually says "bus gate"

Interestingly, anyone turning right onto this stretch of road, after this sign, won't have any warnings until they actually get to the 'gate'.


Heading through the bus gate, from the East to the west -- if you get this far, you'll need to do a u-turn, potentially into the path of an oncoming vehicle from the south.


Turning east through the bus gate, from the South at Vaughan Way (the only one that's illuminated with its own light, above the no left turn sign)


Straight on through the bus gate, west to east (from St. Katharine Docks)

Posted by: Mad Mick V Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 20:13
Post #1544739

Thanks for that.


I don't know if the signage is bad enough for a LATOR 1996 claim of inadequacy.

Mick

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 20:53
Post #1544746

I'd suggest that, when approaching a mini roundabout, our training means we look to the right to give way, rather than focus on strange red lines or signs that are so high up you need to be in a truck to read them.

If heading west, and you spot it in time, you're forced to do a U-turn in quite a dangerous place, potentially into the path of a driver approaching from the south, who should also be looking to their right (and not where you're turning around).

In my opinion, the only way to make them clear would be for the council to dump the roundabout and make it something like a T junction with clear stop lines.

Posted by: Mad Mick V Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 08:46
Post #1544836

An addition to my previous point on the PCN being deficient as to the contravention wording:-

The PCN is wholly deficient in terms of Article 6(3) of the ECHR--"the right for an accused to be promptly informed of the accusation against him or her – this must be in a language which he or she understands and the charge must be detailed and adequately precise."

Mick




Posted by: Syndicate Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 00:06
Post #1554086

How did you solve this? Any success?

Posted by: Twistededge Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 23:04
Post #1554553

I'm aware that the Bus Gate is going to be reviewed sometime in the next month or so, in order to determine how successful it was and whether it should be extended, or open to local residents.


Posted by: summerwinter Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 17:36
Post #1556487

Got catch by this bus gate lats week.

My friend live in wapping, it was a dark winter night, I was following TomTom's direction, the signage was not the most obvious!!


Posted by: johnboy1967 Tue, 24 Mar 2020 - 18:51
Post #1559039

They won't be looking at this until May. At one point google gave the quickest route as driving through Wapping without any mention of bus gate. There is no warning sign heading East from Wapping High Street until you hit the roundabout.

Posted by: D D Thu, 8 Oct 2020 - 22:02
Post #1590798

Sorry for tugging and old thread but I recently received a pcn for this stupid route as nav took me down there due to traffic. I am curious to know, I just moved house today purchased a personalised plate which I’m putting on the vehicle and changing registration of licence and vehicle etc.
Would they still trace me via name or another dvla request? How would this go down if I was to change all of the above and ignore the pcn?
I have a good case response at the ready as I’ve done homework and created it already but just being inquisitive.
TIA

Posted by: stamfordman Thu, 8 Oct 2020 - 22:08
Post #1590801

If you want help you'll need to start your own thread.

The answer is once they have looked the vehicle up with DVLA that's the the name and address they will continue to use. If you ignore the PCN one day you'll find bailiffs at your new address. They are good at this.

Posted by: Incandescent Thu, 8 Oct 2020 - 22:45
Post #1590805

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 8 Oct 2020 - 23:08) *
If you want help you'll need to start your own thread.

The answer is once they have looked the vehicle up with DVLA that's the the name and address they will continue to use. If you ignore the PCN one day you'll find bailiffs at your new address. They are good at this.

+1
Bailiffs are very diligent as their livelihood depends on it.

Posted by: D D Fri, 23 Oct 2020 - 01:27
Post #1594081

After a hectic house move I have just submitted the following,

on the TH site when entering my info i put my new address (dvla still have not updated yet as its a new build property and does not show on their online application portal had to use the D1 postal method)

Dear London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003,

I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice.

On XX/XX/2020 my vehicle XXXXXXX was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice for the reason of 52M Failing to comply with a prohibition on motor vehicles in Wapping High Street (Sampson to Wapping Ln).

In accordance with the Traffic Management Act 2004, my challenge is on the basis that the Traffic Regulation Order was invalid. Please find enclosed evidence to this effect:

1. The signage is totally inadequate to demonstrate to a diligent motorist that a bus gate exists. There are no road markings one would usually associate with a bus gate, the advanced warning signs appear to be some way distant from the roundabout with a bus gate situated on it and the Council fail in their duty with this under LATOR 1996 to --- place on or near the road such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road.

2. The Traffic Management Order relates to a bus gate and the only contravention applicable to a bus gate is 33 - Using a Route Restricted to Certain Vehicles, with the correct suffix and a 953 sign. The order is not a prohibition on vehicles and as such the cited contravention is invalid.

Furthermore, the restrictions are in effect from 4 – 7pm and as the clock in my vehicle indicated 15:51 (time recorded was 16:09), I entered as I believed it was safe to go through. The vehicles clock is 18 years old and manually programmed. Motorists cannot all be expected to wear time pieces which self-calibrate to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock.

I received the PCN after the 14 day period as I recently moved home and experiencing delays changing address with DVLA. The new address does not appear on their system when applying online as it’s a new build resulting in filling a D1 and sending via post. A slow mail redirection to the new address also adds delays.

For the reasons stated above, I look forward to receiving notification that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled within 28 days.

My previous address,
00 XXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXXX


Yours Faithfully

Posted by: sassie Sat, 14 Nov 2020 - 14:47
Post #1599520

Hi D D,
I've just been fined for this as well.

How did you get on with your appeal, and if succesful would you mind if I quoted some of your reasons?



Posted by: D D Sat, 14 Nov 2020 - 17:11
Post #1599540

Hello sassie,

I submitted my appeal but not yet had any correspondence. I will log in to the website over the weekend and see if there anything has applied on there.

Posted by: D D Sat, 14 Nov 2020 - 22:49
Post #1599583

It’s current status is showing as NTO/Enf. Notice sent

Posted by: sassie Sun, 15 Nov 2020 - 09:44
Post #1599613

D D, I guess that means they’ve rejected your appeal and moved on to the next stage?

Posted by: D D Sun, 15 Nov 2020 - 10:44
Post #1599621

Not sure to be honest but if it was rejected i would have thought it would be marked as NOR notice of rejection or NOA notice of acceptance. Maybe this kung flu CVD lark has delayed appeals

Posted by: sassie Sun, 15 Nov 2020 - 17:31
Post #1599705

fingers crossed...

Posted by: sassie Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 10:48
Post #1600587

hi D D,
i’m just about to put in an appeal and wondering if yours was successful?

Posted by: D D Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 11:21
Post #1600591

I’ve not heard anything as of yet sorry
Open a new case and put a draft up to get peoples opinions first

Posted by: sassie Thu, 19 Nov 2020 - 13:59
Post #1600639

thanks, will do

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