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Late payment for Station car park
Boris21232
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 09:58
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Managed to get the attached Penalty Notice Attached File  Indigo_2.pdf ( 31.98K ) Number of downloads: 111
from Indigo for parking in a station car park without displaying a valid ticket.

The driver had to run for the train, fully intending to pay on their app while on the train. Of course driver totally forgot until late afternoon, by which time the only option is to pay for a reduced, post 10am ticket, which is what happened did. The car was "spotted" before 10am and the Notice was prepared after.

Of course, when the driver got back to the car there was a penalty notice!

Is there any get out/wiggle room? It is a company car, but not sure if that makes any difference.

Any advice greatly appreciated as ever.

This post has been edited by Boris21232: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 13:36
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post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 09:58
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ostell
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 11:39
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First thing is do not hint at who was driving. Edit that post NOW.

Lots of wiggle room, especially for a company car. Whose name is on the V5 for the car, you, your company or a car leasing company? Is it easy to contact the people that deal with the cars?

This is railway land so byelaws apply so no possibility of keeper liability. You are the keeper. If the company name is on the V5 then the company can not be driving. There is no byelaw offence of failing to display.

Several ways to handle this but let's have the info first.
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Boris21232
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 13:40
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Thanks for the advice Ostell - post edited!

As it happens, the V5C shows the company as both the owner and registered keeper.
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ostell
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 14:25
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Are you on good terms with the people that handle the cars? Warn them and if they are agreeable then wait for the NTK to arrive. As it's byelaw land then there can be no keeper liability, only the driver can be held liable. When the company get the NTK they write back saying that there can be no keeper liability as this is not relevant land and therefore there can be no keeper liability under POFA and demand that they go away and chase the driver who they are no obliged to name. You could ask for a POPLA code to take it furhter and have POPLA throw it out. Request details of which byelaw proscribes failure to display as an offence (they don't).

The come back to this will be they will make the reasonable assumption that the keeper was the driver using Elliot v Loake. When was the last time you saw a body corporate with a driving licence?

Perhaps they will let you write the letters, with help from here. It could be a learning experience for them.

Keep the identity of the driver secret and come back here when the NTK arrives.

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 14:26
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Boris21232
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 14:32
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Many thanks and the company won't have any issue with that course of action! I'll let you know when the NTK is received.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 15:02
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As long as parking is paid for, it's not (as I understand it) a byelaw offence anyway, the byelaw offence if if no payment is made.


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cabbyman
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 15:06
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Also, try to keep the correspondence ping-pong going for 6 months, while complying with their arbitrary deadlines. They can't take action against the driver under Railway Byelaws once 6 months have elapsed. Hence the reason for NEVER divulging the driver's identity.


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Gary Bloke
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 22:12
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There is no longer any POPLA appeals process at station car parks.
See https://uk.parkindigo.com/en/faq
"The POPLA process does not apply in Scotland or to PN’s (Penalty Notices) received at a railway station car park."
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Barry S
post Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 00:13
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 16:02) *
As long as parking is paid for, it's not (as I understand it) a byelaw offence anyway, the byelaw offence if if no payment is made.


The full text of the relevant Byelaw in this particular case (namely 14(3)) is as follows:

QUOTE (Railway Byelaws)
No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall park it on any part of the railway where charges are made for parking by an Operator or an authorised person without paying the appropriate charge at the appropriate time in accordance with instructions given by an Operator or an authorised person at that place.

From the OP, it would seem to me that the offence is complete on two counts:
  1. At the time of issue, no payment had been made
  2. When payment was finally made, it was at the off-peak rate rather than the peak rate that applied when the vehicle was parked
Having said that, Govia Thameslink Railway aren't known for taking people to Court for parking issues - unlike East Coast and Northern - so it's mostly a case of holding your nerve.

This post has been edited by Barry S: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 00:14
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ostell
post Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 07:44
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The "offence" quoted is "Failing to display" not failing to pay. It is a bit of a silly "offence" as how can you display when you are also permitted to pay by phone or app?

The request for a POPLA code was to bear bait them a bit, knowing that POPLA wouldn't hear or automatically accept any appeal, and should get a few letter exchanges towards that 6 months.
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Gary Bloke
post Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 08:23
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Indigo is no longer supplying POPLA codes when they reject the initial appeal. No appeal to POPLA is possible.
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ostell
post Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 09:21
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As I said bear baiting them so that the matter can be extended past the 6 months. As a mere consumer how is the OP to know that POPLA, the recognised ADR for BPA members, wouldn't be happy with a railway byelaws matter? I believe the BPS CoP does require them to supply when an appeal is refused.
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Gary Bloke
post Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 09:38
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The BPA has responded to the backlog of POPLA appeals relating to Byelaw 14 parking tickets. It has "temporarily" removed the requirement for PPCs to offer POPLA appeals at station car parks, whist allowing them to remain as members of the BPA.

This means that there is no possibility for motorists to appeal Byelaw 14 tickets to POPLA until the BPA reinstates the POPLA appeal requirement.

I cannot see this happening anytime soon.
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ManxRed
post Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 11:39
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QUOTE (Gary Bloke @ Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 10:38) *
The BPA has responded to the backlog of POPLA appeals relating to Byelaw 14 parking tickets. It has "temporarily" removed the requirement for PPCs to offer POPLA appeals at station car parks, whist allowing them to remain as members of the BPA.

This means that there is no possibility for motorists to appeal Byelaw 14 tickets to POPLA until the BPA reinstates the POPLA appeal requirement.

I cannot see this happening anytime soon.


But did the original ticket mention an independent appeal? More letter exchanges, more timewasting...


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bama
post Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 13:49
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QUOTE (Gary Bloke @ Tue, 17 Oct 2017 - 10:38) *
The BPA has responded to the backlog of POPLA appeals relating to Byelaw 14 parking tickets. It has "temporarily" removed the requirement for PPCs to offer POPLA appeals at station car parks, whist allowing them to remain as members of the BPA.

This means that there is no possibility for motorists to appeal Byelaw 14 tickets to POPLA until the BPA reinstates the POPLA appeal requirement.

I cannot see this happening anytime soon.



oh dear. wasn't it made clear that as a condition of POFA that PPCs HAVE to offer an independent appeal system.
Seems on its face that the BPA is ignoring the will and the words of government.


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