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Incorrect details on a red route pcn
8lamps8
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 20:38
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Hi I received a pcn on a red route for returning to a bay within the two hours. I was first logged by the ceo at 08.51 and then again at 10.07 so he issued a pcn. The pcn only has the time of 08.51 on it so reads as if it was issued at 08.51. I made an informal representation stating I believed the pcn was incorrectly issued as I was legally parked at 08.51 TFL have rejected it saying I now have to wait for the notice to owner to either appeal or pay. Does anyone have any advice on whether I can challenge this? Many thanks
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post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 20:38
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stamfordman
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 20:46
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As always, post the PCN, your challenge and their rejection.

Use a site such as Imgur or Flickr for pics.

It does seem like they have messed up but that's par for the course with TFL and it will be interesting to see what they said.
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8lamps8
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:16
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Stamfordman im struggling to add the pics! It keeps saying the file I’d too big. I’ve downloaded flickr but not sure how to get the pics loaded? Please help 😂😂
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:17
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Upload the pics to flickr and post a link on here.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:17


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8lamps8
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:36
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https://flic.kr/p/JQ5ZXEhttps://flic.kr/p/JQ5RW9https://flic.kr/p/25SnSUb
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:45
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Can you please post the rest of the PCN? It's important.

First thoughts are: The PCN does not, on its face, support the allegation: being parked in the bay at 8:51 is not a contravention in itself; also the contravention should probably be Parked for longer than permitted


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8lamps8
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:48
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https://flic.kr/p/25ApqDD
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:51
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QUOTE (8lamps8 @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:36) *



What utter rubbish. A PCN must state the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;

If you are parked legally at 08.51. and that is the first observation time, you cannot be in contravention until 09.51 and a PCN cannot be served until 10.01 That is the earliest time a PCn can be served.

You might have been there longer than permitted, but at the time of service of the PCN you were not. That's what counts

See schedule 1(1)(d)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3483/schedule/made



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8lamps8
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:57
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TFL are saying they can rely on the ceos notes though?

Although the pcn time is 08.51 it was actually issued at 10.07
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John U.K.
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:09
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QUOTE
Although the pcn time is 08.51 it was actually issued at 10.07


Have we seen the whole of both sides of the PCN?
Where on the PCN does it say the time of issue?

Look at the list of requirements of the legislation in the link PastMyBest gave you.

I think you will find a duff PCN is unenforceable, but you will have to fight on.

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cp8759
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:14
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QUOTE (8lamps8 @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:57) *
TFL are saying they can rely on the ceos notes though?

Although the pcn time is 08.51 it was actually issued at 10.07

The CEO notes cannot cure a PCN which is bad on its face. If the PCN doesn't state the grounds on which it was issued, no penalty is due. In any event the contravention wording is wrong, it is simply not true that you were stopped on a red route or clearway, as you were parked in a parking bay. I would fight this all the way.

QUOTE (John U.K. @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 23:09) *
Have we seen the whole of both sides of the PCN?

It's in post 7


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:17
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 23:09) *
QUOTE
Although the pcn time is 08.51 it was actually issued at 10.07


Have we seen the whole of both sides of the PCN?
Where on the PCN does it say the time of issue?

Look at the list of requirements of the legislation in the link PastMyBest gave you.

I think you will find a duff PCN is unenforceable, but you will have to fight on.



good point john .

Post up all of the pcn both sides


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cp8759
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:19
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@8lamps8 in fairness we haven't seen the back of the PCN in full.


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8lamps8
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:23
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https://flic.kr/p/25St5m9
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:33
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This confirms that the PCN is unenforceable as nothing on the PCN alleged that you stayed in a parking bay for longer than permitted. On top of that, the PCN wrongly states that a Notice to Owner "will" be sent, rather than "may" be sent. This might seem like semantics to you, but it's not and an appeal can be won on this ground alone (I have to confess I'm a bit surprised to see such a basic mistake on a TFL PCN). Wait for the NtO and we'll draft reps for you.


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8lamps8
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:36
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Will do and thanks
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stamfordman
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 07:08
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TFL behaving badly on this as I thought - their CEO made a mistake and rather than cancel they are wrongly trying to railroad you into paying. The law is clear - the PCN must state:

(d)the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;
(e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;
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Neil B
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 07:29
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Have we seen the sign or location.

I believe the contravention is correct; the prohibition is stopping.

I think I agree the time is wrong but then again it might be argued it is correct, that being the time
the contravention of stopping took place?

I suspect 10 mins might not apply: It isn't a 'parking place' exactly.

Here?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4648621,-...3312!8i6656


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 07:57
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I suspect this is a limitation of the machines TFL uses - there is a perfectly good list of London contravention codes and observation times to program into their system and indeed they cite the codes themselves:


A standard system of two-digit codes is used to explain why a PCN has been issued.
As well as this code, the following information will appear on the notice:
• Description of the contravention
• Vehicle details
• Date, time and location where the offence took place
• Charge amount


http://content.tfl.gov.uk/parking-and-loading-legally.pdf
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DastardlyDick
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 14:35
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 9 May 2018 - 08:08) *
TFL behaving badly on this as I thought - their CEO made a mistake and rather than cancel they are wrongly trying to railroad you into paying. The law is clear - the PCN must state:

(d)the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;
(e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;


It does - at the top "date of service 17/04/18" at 0851 and "In circumstances giving me reasonable cause......"


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 23:33) *
This confirms that the PCN is unenforceable as nothing on the PCN alleged that you stayed in a parking bay for longer than permitted. On top of that, the PCN wrongly states that a Notice to Owner "will" be sent, rather than "may" be sent. This might seem like semantics to you, but it's not and an appeal can be won on this ground alone (I have to confess I'm a bit surprised to see such a basic mistake on a TFL PCN). Wait for the NtO and we'll draft reps for you.


Where on the PCN does it say "will"? I can only see "may".
TfL only use 2 codes for on street enforcement 46 & 62 - this has been accepted by Adjudicators for many years.
edit:-
It's 3 codes, I forgot 99 - stopped on a pedestrian crossing or crossing marked by zig zags.

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Thu, 10 May 2018 - 14:40
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