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Newham PCN Contravetion code 16. (Event day), Correspondence contradictions- worth appealling?
Psych101
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 20:01
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Hi, I've searched high and low and cannot find the answers to the specific questions I have so here goes...

I receives a PCN on the 16th Jan '18 for 'failing to display a valid permit' contravention code 16.The bay I was parked in has parking restrictions between 10am and 12 noon with the exception of event day when
the restrictions are between 8am and 9m. I received the PCN at 12.39. Initially I thought that the enforcement officer had made a mistake as I had checked and double checked the Newham website for any
notification of an event(s) on that day and the 16th of Jan was not on the list (I have a screen shot to show this), although this was later updated, and the 16th of Jan was added to the list of event days.

Anyway, I made an appeal to say that the information was not made available on the Newham website until the day after the event and I was therefore unaware and had no way of knowing. (I wasn't aware that
there were signs at the zones entry point at this time). The appeal was rejected as they stated I should have used the signs as a reference. However the letter also states that 'motorist are encouraged to check
the Newham website for event details and dates'. Which is what I had done.

Furthermore the letter sates I am liable to pay 'the full penalty amount of £65.00'. Whereas the notice to owner states the full amount as £130.00

So my question is, based on the information above do I have grounds for appeal? If so, what should my argument be?

I have included images of the web page I checked on the day, the sign posted for the parking bay, the original PCN, and rejection of appeal



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post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 20:01
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stamfordman
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 20:08
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i would take this all the way - they can't mess people around like this.

We've seen another case the other day too with the 'full amount of £65' - think it was Newham.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 20:09
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hcandersen
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 21:48
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Mess people around! How do we get there?

The OP has not dated the first fixture list ( chronologically) - which even carries the warning that dates may change. Of course they'll change unless someone knows the results of the random FA Cup draws and games in advance!

This was a replay from 6 Jan. So, when exactly was the website updated?

£65 is a typo and IMO it would be foolish to wait for an NTO before taking action, the OP would need to pay £65 now and then if a NTO arrived make reps on the grounds that the penalty exceeds etc.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 22:37
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Well, OP says "I made an appeal to say that the information was not made available on the Newham website until the day after the event" and perhaps an adjudicator would have to hear from him/her in person if the screen shots are not dated. If the OP checked on the day itself then I think there is a solid case.
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Neil B
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 23:16
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QUOTE (Psych101 @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 21:01) *
they stated I should have used the signs as a reference.

Four within 25m of you advising the event day - if they updated them? Council pics?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 23:16


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 06:16
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@stamfordman, we have the OP's precis of their challenge, but not the challenge itself. OP, pl post your challenge.

IMO, the key point is not what happened after 16th but a simple statement to the effect that the OP parked on 16th having checked the website at *** on *** at which time the 16th was not scheduled as an Event Day.

Simple statements, hopefully of fact. And when we see them we can assess whether an adj would be likely to buy an argument based upon it.


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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 07:20
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OP-----going back to Neil's point, You don't appear to have parked in a controlled zone regardless of the plate you have shown.

GSV shows the entry to the Zone on the other side of the road:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5387763,0...3312!8i6656

There appear to be no Zone markers when you turn into Vicarage Lane from Densham Road or up to where you parked.

The Zone signs shown on GSV are duff because they have two event dates shown--see that issue here:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1243382

I think you have enough with the screenshot but it might be worthwhile trying to get a photo of the event day signs which were in place.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 07:21
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Neil B
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 08:31
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 08:20) *
OP-----going back to Neil's point, You don't appear to have parked in a controlled zone regardless of the plate you have shown.

Those two Closes are in 'S' but most of Vicarage in 'SSE'.
Signs about 200m North on Vicarage.

Both zones are part of the event zone.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 08:45


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 10:08
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@Neil B

Spotted that one to the north of where the OP parked ---but surely that's a zone entry sign? Doesn't look like a repeater.

That said the original DfT approval is as clear as mud:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4284.pdf

Anyway, I bow to your knowledge of the area.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 10:16
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Neil B
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 10:27
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5405244,0...3312!8i6656

Others on West Ham Lane and Portway.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 11:17
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There's no doubt OP was in the event zone. Of course the council won't be able to produce a pic of entry sign with the event for that day, and given hopefully a failure to update the website this may well be enough to sow doubt in the adjudicator's mind that the council is on the ball (pun intended).

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 11:18
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Neil B
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 11:20
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 12:17) *
Of course the council won't be able to produce a pic of entry sign with the event for that day,

We need those Council pics.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 11:40
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 12:20) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 12:17) *
Of course the council won't be able to produce a pic of entry sign with the event for that day,

We need those Council pics.



That was a bit presumptuous of me but I've checked online and there are 6 pics of the car plus 1 of the bay sign (which the OP has posted) but nothing else.
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Psych101
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 18:15
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Hi,

The image I uploaded (from Newham website) doesn't show the dates the screen shots were taken but the 1st one (without the 16th listed) was taken on the 16th January at 13.40. and I have a screen shot from
the 18th January that does show the 16th onthe list of events. So, it was updated at some point AFTER I receive the PCN.

I myself didn't take a picture of the event signs because I didn't know anything about them and I still have no idea where they are plus the council never sent/showed any evidence of the signs showing the
16th as an event day. I park here on a regular basis and have always relied on the website. I also enter the zone from different directions depending on the traffic and where I am coming from so I'm not sure
which zones I was expected to rely on.

I just checked google maps and there is no evidence of a sign upon entering vicarage lane from Densham road, however I'm not 100% whether not this has been rectified as the map is from sept 2017.
Also, parallel/adjacent to where I parked there is a sign (Covier close) however this is for zone S not SSE.





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Neil B
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 18:27
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QUOTE (Psych101 @ Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 19:15) *
I myself didn't take a picture of the event signs because I didn't know anything about them and I still have no idea where they are plus the council never sent/showed any evidence of the signs showing the
16th as an event day. I park here on a regular basis and have always relied on the website. I also enter the zone from different directions depending on the traffic and where I am coming from so I'm not sure
which zones I was expected to rely on.

I just checked google maps and there is no evidence of a sign upon entering vicarage lane from Densham road, however I'm not 100% whether not this has been rectified as the map is from sept 2017.
Also, parallel/adjacent to where I parked there is a sign (Covier close) however this is for zone S not SSE.

Have you been reading replies?
Before you can get a further fight right you must first note where you went wrong.

So you read the website for dates but don't know where it refers to? i.e. the entry points. It's been posted by Mick.

The (obvious) point about the four signs adjacent was that, irrespective of zone, they should show the event day.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 18:34
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Here's map of SSE.

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Neil B
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 18:49
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 19:34) *
Here's map of SSE.

and the whole event zone is in Mick's DfT link.

From most directions you pass at least two entry point signs.
But so far, Newham haven't offered any in evidence. Adjudicators have gone both ways on this.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Psych101
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 20:13
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I'm reading the replies I'm just a bit lost.

I checked the website for evidence of an event day and the 16 was not on the list, so in my mind this was not an event day, Its pretty much a guarantee that I passed an event day sign but whether or not the 16th was displayed on
one of those signs is a mystery at this point. Newham haven't sent any evidence that it was so can I argue that 1. I have seen no evidence that the 16th was advertised as an event day on the zone signs
2.The website definitely didn't advertise the 16th as an event day until after the fact ( or at the very least until after the PCN was issued). 3. the rejection letter stated that the website should be used for event
and dates, which I did.

@Neil B- I knew I was in an event zone and I also know that the information I checked for event days was related to the zone I was in. I didn't notice the section that mentions the signs I only checked the list to see if I was parking on
an event day so I suppose it can be argued that I didn't read all the information on the page and therefore I am at fault. I'm not sure.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 20:54
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OP, we must see the evidence.

You have twice referred to your challenge and given us a summary, but what we want to see is the challenge itself.

For example, if you are now filling in gaps in your challenge i.e. showing us and describing in detail evidence which you only sketched out in your challenge, then why should the authority be blamed?

Evidence please, not statements.
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