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Buildings insurance query., Third party damage.
Neil B
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 16:34
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Friend just had a main burst; a buried lead pipe beneath their house, i.e. their responsibility
not the water co.

Flow was heavy, circa 2 litres/minute. or more and flowed through footings into next door property.

At first claim call today the insurer is saying resultant damage to neighbour is not covered?
Obviously she's going to read policy but that comment from insurer surprised me.
What, for example, would happen if a tile blew off the roof and hit a car of a third party?

Thoughts welcome.


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post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 16:34
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cp8759
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 16:36
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It's all down to the policy wording, most are published online so if you can post a link


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Neil B
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 17:15
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Thanks cp.

There's a link to 'summary of cover' on this page -
https://www.saga.co.uk/insurance/home-insur...dings-insurance


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StuartBu
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 17:24
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I had an instance where water from a leaking washing machine in the flat above me caused damage to my kitchen ceiling . I tried to claim on their insurance but the response was that there was no negligence on their clients part so seems your insurers are taking the same line. Perhaps if there had been negligence on your part to cause the problem they might have taken a different view re your neighbour.
I didnt claim my insurers just fixed it myself- your neighbour might need to go down that road or ask you to pay.!!!
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stamfordman
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 17:26
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I don't think it works like car insurance as there's no third party option.

Has friend got legal cover - I take that out now after a neighbour dispute and at £20 a year I reckon it's well worth it and would I expect cover advice if they get sued.*

* But I think insurance does cover you if it was a negligent act/situation, not accidental/unforeseeable.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 17:30
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Steve_999
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 22:52
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Remember that the cover you are talking about is against any negligence of your friend. What negligence was there? They had (probably unknown to them) an old lead pipe carrying mains water into their property. Was there any reason for them to have known, or even suspect, that there might be a burst in that pipe causing damage to their neighbour?

I would imagine the answer is "no". Therefore the neighbour has no claim against your friend and, of course, their insurance company would not be interested in paying up. The neighbour would need to be claiming on their own insurance, who would then undoubtedly be looking to recover their costs if any negligence was suspected.
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cp8759
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 23:46
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 18:15) *
Thanks cp.

There's a link to 'summary of cover' on this page -
https://www.saga.co.uk/insurance/home-insur...dings-insurance

Please ask your friend whether it's the standard or tailored policy, and the date the policy started, that link has all the policy booklets, just need to identify the right one.


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facade
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 05:40
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 17:34) *
What, for example, would happen if a tile blew off the roof and hit a car of a third party?


As above, if there is no negligence, there is no claim. Provided that the roof is in a good state of repair, you could no more have foreseen a tile coming off than the person parking where if a tile came off it would hit them.
If the roof hadn't been touched for 50 years, with obviously cracked and broken tiles hanging off for some time, then it would be negligent not to repair it, and there would be a claim against you. (Your insurer might seek to recover any payout [or possibly refuse the claim]) from you as keeping your property in a good state of repair will be part of the T&Cs
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Neil B
post Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 13:34
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 00:46) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 18:15) *
Thanks cp.

There's a link to 'summary of cover' on this page -
https://www.saga.co.uk/insurance/home-insur...dings-insurance

Please ask your friend whether it's the standard or tailored policy, and the date the policy started, that link has all the policy booklets, just need to identify the right one.

As soon as I get the chance. Thanks cp.


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Neil B
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 11:13
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 00:46) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 18:15) *
Thanks cp.

There's a link to 'summary of cover' on this page -
https://www.saga.co.uk/insurance/home-insur...dings-insurance

Please ask your friend whether it's the standard or tailored policy, and the date the policy started, that link has all the policy booklets, just need to identify the right one.

Ok, hard to get a simple answer but it seems it's the standard 'Essentials' policy.

I now have more of the story and it's worrying.
Water Co fitted a new stopcock in front garden a few months ago. Informed friend's partner that they registered a leak somewhere inside.
Partner understood from them it was minor and no immediate action was required: It was an 'as and when you have access to pipes' comment.
Whether partner's understanding is accurate is anyone's guess.

This is confirmed by what I saw: There is extensive dry rot and wet rot damage beneath the suspended floor, indicating that there has been
a leak, to some degree, for maybe over a year at least.
I don't believe the heavy leak could have been responsible; that must have happened very recently due to freezing weather
followed by a relatively quick warm up.

I guess I best duck before the comments but all are welcome.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 11:31
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It would be difficult to prove negligence and I doubt the insurance company will roll over unless the neighbour tries to make a claim on that basis.

Apart from anything else there is no proof that the small leak developed into the large leak without a plumbers report.

Really your friend just needs to do what her insurance company tells her to. it is their money and their job to establish liability and possible negligence.


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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nigelbb
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 14:04
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There is a difference between the neighbour being liable & whether their insurance company will pay out. In this instance I think there is a good case the neighbour is liable as they were made aware of a leak.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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StuartBu
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 18:27
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 15:04) *
There is a difference between the neighbour being liable & whether their insurance company will pay out. In this instance I think there is a good case the neighbour is liable as they were made aware of a leak.

Unless I've misread things it wasn't the neighbour who had the leak
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cp8759
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 18:49
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 12:13) *
Ok, hard to get a simple answer but it seems it's the standard 'Essentials' policy.

We need the start date of the policy to find the correct policy wording.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Neil B
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 18:58
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 19:49) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 12:13) *
Ok, hard to get a simple answer but it seems it's the standard 'Essentials' policy.

We need the start date of the policy to find the correct policy wording.

Ok I'm there tomorrow. Will update.

Thanks.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Steve_999
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 23:14
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It may also be important who was aware of a possible leak. If it was just the "partner" and they were not the owner/tenant, then the friend may have no liability anyway. If the partner and friend were joint tenants/owners it might be a different story. It starts to get a bit more complicated!
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ford poplar
post Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 04:39
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I assume OP is talking about a lead feeder pipe serving 1 or more properties?
IMO thehe water Co is resp for any leaks before the properties boundary, then Property owners beyond, pro rata, which may be for Insurers to determine. There may be liability for consequential loss.



This post has been edited by ford poplar: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 04:46
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nigelbb
post Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 06:48
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 19:27) *
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 15:04) *
There is a difference between the neighbour being liable & whether their insurance company will pay out. In this instance I think there is a good case the neighbour is liable as they were made aware of a leak.

Unless I've misread things it wasn't the neighbour who had the leak

Just re-read the OP & you are correct. It looks like the neighbour could well have a claim against the OP's friend.

QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 19:27) *
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 15:04) *
There is a difference between the neighbour being liable & whether their insurance company will pay out. In this instance I think there is a good case the neighbour is liable as they were made aware of a leak.

Unless I've misread things it wasn't the neighbour who had the leak

Just re-read the OP & you are correct. It looks like the neighbour could well have a claim against the OP's friend.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Neil B
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 12:14
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 19:49) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 12:13) *
Ok, hard to get a simple answer but it seems it's the standard 'Essentials' policy.

We need the start date of the policy to find the correct policy wording.

August 2016, renewed 2017.

Insurance surveyor came yesterday. Friendly, thorough and she will hear more next week.
In response to 'is this covered?' he basically answered that he needed to do the same as you - check the policy.

Saga sold but Legal & General the insurer. I'm unsure of the connection.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 12:15


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 13:13
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 13:14) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 19:49) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 12:13) *
Ok, hard to get a simple answer but it seems it's the standard 'Essentials' policy.

We need the start date of the policy to find the correct policy wording.

August 2016, renewed 2017.

Insurance surveyor came yesterday. Friendly, thorough and she will hear more next week.
In response to 'is this covered?' he basically answered that he needed to do the same as you - check the policy.

Saga sold but Legal & General the insurer. I'm unsure of the connection.

Right, so this seems fairly straightforward. The relevant policy booklet is this one: https://www.saga.co.uk/contentlibrary/saga/...ctive.pdf?la=en

Page 15: "Escape of water (water damage) as a result of a burst, leaking or overflowing fixed domestic drain, water or heating installation, kitchen appliance or fixed domestic water piping/pipes. This includes damage to any fixed domestic water installation caused by freezing or bursting."

Page 16: "Trace and access. We will also pay up to £5,000 in total for the costs we have agreed to in advance, for locating the source of the water or oil damage including the reinstatement of any wall, flooring or ceiling removed or damaged during the search."

Page 20: "Your legal liability as owner of the buildings: We will insure you for all amounts which you have legal liability to pay as owner but not occupier for accidents which happen in or around the property which result in:
l physical injury to or illness of any person; or
l loss of or damage to property.

There is a limit of £2 million for all claims, including any claimant costs and expenses arising from any one accident. We will also pay defence costs and expenses, which we agree to in writing. Your legal liability for buildings you have owned in the past:
We will insure your legal liability under Section 3 of the Defective Premises Act 1972 or Section 5 of the Defective Premises (Northern Ireland) Order 1975 as the past owner of any buildings which you lived in at the time of sale or disposal for incidents which happened in or around that buildings and
which resulted in:
l physical injury to or illness of any person other than your employees; or
l loss of or damage to property.
"

So, the damage to the property itself is obviously covered. If your friend is legally liable for the damage to the neighbour's property, his insurance indemnifies him up to £2 million. If your friend isn't legally liable for the damage to the neighbour's property, then he's not liable so it's fine. This is of course assuming the policy doesn't have any endorsements which limit the cover outlined in the policy document, and none of the standard exclusion apply (i.e. the property wasn't left empty for over 60 day and so on). Therefore if the neighbour wants to make a claim, the best thing to do is get him (or his insurers) to write a letter of claim to your friend, then your friend can (as you would do for a car accident) simply pass the correspondence unanswered to Saga, and their claims department / their lawyers can deal with it.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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