Council letter claiming fine on PCN after over a year of no reply ? |
Council letter claiming fine on PCN after over a year of no reply ? |
Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 14:59
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 16 Apr 2018 Member No.: 97,538 |
I've just received a letter from a neighbouring council 15 months after an alleged offence, where I've tried to contact them many times by post, email and phone, outlining the measures they intend to take to recover the fine they've levied. In spite of having followed their "process" for challenging/appealing, I've had no opportunity to talk to anyone, formally or informally, or to make any representation in person.
I'd appreciate any views on my odds of winning this if I let them go to court, as it looks like they're just ratcheting up the fines in the hope that I'll pay to make them stop, and like they're not going to give me any chance to explain anyway. The timeline is as follows:
This post has been edited by bazinga: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:05 |
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 14:59
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:07
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Well all you can do is wait for debt recovery and declare you sent an appeal but didn't get a reply, which is one of the few statutory grounds you have to reset the process.
It looks like they put it on hold after you complained about the charge certificate and have now rebooted it. Is all well with your name and address as per the V5C car reg doc. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:07 |
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:17
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#3
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 16 Apr 2018 Member No.: 97,538 |
Thanks for the reply
Yes, they might have a 15-month backlog. TBH I don't think there's a chance in hell of getting hold of anyone to talk to so I might as well sit it out. It feels like a mugging from the start, this thing is a cash machine for them, but hopefully they don't have any more than the "discount amount" of £65 to go after. All V5 details match the correspondence, no errors. This post has been edited by bazinga: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:18 |
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:35
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#4
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP--I wouldn't bother too much about this until the OfR arrives. The Council has form with this barrel scraping and TBH if it goes any further you should consider a costs order due to unfairness and prejudice caused by undue delay.
We can give you the right words to use if the case goes to tribunal or better still if you find yourself in a position to complain to the Local Authorities Ombudsman. Mick |
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 18:31
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
OP--I wouldn't bother too much about this until the OfR arrives. The Council has form with this barrel scraping and TBH if it goes any further you should consider a costs order due to unfairness and prejudice caused by undue delay. We can give you the right words to use if the case goes to tribunal or better still if you find yourself in a position to complain to the Local Authorities Ombudsman. Mick +1 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 20:48
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,055 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Your case is pretty standard fare, nothing special except perhaps the time lag.
There is a standard procedure - stay within it, but I would add one step. Email them, thank them for their letter and ask them to arrange to have the OfR issued as soon as possible. Then wait for it. If it hasn't arrived by 30 April send them another email and repeat every fortnight. Do not argue or dispute, just play the game. And as regards not being able 'to make any representation in person', yes you did, you submitted reps. You cannot dispute matters by phone, you must write. You started off on the right foot but then lost your way. This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 20:51 |
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 22:57
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#7
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
@hca
I would undertake the first step but nothing more. Don't give them an opportunity to explain which would degrade the OP's position regarding the delay. Mick |
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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 06:25
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,055 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
@MMV, 'explain' what?
The OP should not raise anything which needs an explanation, but I grant you that given the OP's track record of trying to argue the toss over the phone there is a possibility that making a call to ask when an OfR may be issued may be a step too far. They have received 2 of 3 notices by post (the PCN and CC) missing only the NOR, and also received a written response so not receiving the OfR is a low-risk issue. |
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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 06:39
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#9
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
@hca
If this case is to be fought on unfairness due to delay the Davis precedent is key. The "explain" bit might be summed up by the highlighted words below:- 2130453008 There has been a great deal of unexplained delay in this case. The Notice to Owner was issued on 24th August 2011. However the Charge Certificate was only issued on 22nd March 2013. The Council has not given any explanation for the level of delay before issuing the Charge Certificate and obtaining registration of the debt at Court. In my judgement there is a compromise of Article 6 of the Human Rights Convention here. It is a problem for the Adjudicator to give a fair hearing in the case if the delay has potentially affected the recollection of events by either the Appellant or the parking attendant. Also, for this enforcement to be lawful the Council has a duty to exercise its powers with reasonable expedition and fairness. I note the case of R-v- Secretary of State for Home Department ex p. Doody (1994) (House of Lords) per Lord Mustill : "Where an Act of Parliament confers an administrative power there is a presumption that it will be exercised in a manner which is fair in all the circumstances" . I have also considered Davis-v- Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea ( PAS 1970198981) where it was considered that a delay of more than 2/3 months in responding to an appellant's representations was prima facie evidence of unfairness in the absence of explanation . I am not satisfied that the local authority has conducted the timetable of this enforcement with reasonable expedition and that, as a result, there is an unfairness. For both of these reasons I find that the appropriate Direction here is that the Penalty Charge Notice must now be cancelled. Mick |
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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 07:59
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,055 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
@MMV, I don't understand the point.
Made reps, NOR not received. No arguments to make until appeal and we're not there yet. My worry is that based on their track record the more the OP is fed with what they might do, but only later in the process, the more they're likely to try and bring this forward because they're impatient and do not follow procedure. There is a simple procedure and my message to the OP is stick to it. There are no arguments to make to or have with the authority, only the adjudicator ultimately. |
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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 19:23
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#11
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 16 Apr 2018 Member No.: 97,538 |
I can't see any point to trying to call them again - in the course of numerous calls I've never once managed to speak to a person. Just on-hold messages and a line drop or an automated "pick a number to make a payment" type system.
So is it actually worth emailing them to acknowledge their letter and to ask them to get to the OfR as quickly as possible ? Again I've never had a human response to any email, just an automated one as shown ... I assume my emails are just binned as soon as they arrive. Thanks for all your input |
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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 19:49
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#12
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP----you might like to keep a reference the points I made here:-
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1375184 As and when necessary------I don't want to tread on hca's toes! Mick |
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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 19:57
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#13
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 16 Apr 2018 Member No.: 97,538 |
Will do - thanks
As a matter of interest, does this apply at all, given that I've never had (other than automatic) acknowledgement of anything I've ever sent them ? From https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...ent-process#pcn "The enforcement authority considers your representations The authority must, before the end of 56 days beginning with the date on which they receive representations: Consider representations received in time; Decide whether to accept or reject them; Serve on the person who made the representations: A Notice of Acceptance, if it accepts them; or A Notice of Rejection and a Notice of Appeal form, if it does not accept them If the authority fail to respond within 56 days, they will be deemed to have accepted the grounds in question If they have accepted the representations or failed to respond within 56 days, they will cancel the Notice to Owner (where the Penalty Charge Notice was served at the scene) or the Penalty Charge Notice (where this was served by post) and refund any sums paid." The "... or failed to respond ..." suggests that they have 56 days from the date I sent the challenge to accept or reject it, is that the case ? |
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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 19:59
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
It's not called Ealing comedy for nothing.
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Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 12:33
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#15
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 16 Apr 2018 Member No.: 97,538 |
So now, three years and five months after the "contravention", the Order for Recovery has finally arrived, with a copy of the PCN (though the "pictures of the offence" on this one are now blank).
It says my options are to pay £195 to Ealing or to file a statutory declaration. Apparently this declaration must be signed before a commissioner for oaths ... how much is that likely to cost ? Any ideas appreciated ! This post has been edited by bazinga: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 12:34 |
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Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 12:43
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
It's the Pepipoo time machine - 2 years on...
The sum asked for should be £203. It costs nothing to make a declaration at a county court but during lockdown they have been accepting them by email I think - no witness required. Others will confirm. |
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Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 12:49
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#17
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 16 Apr 2018 Member No.: 97,538 |
Is a "Rejection Notice" a recognisable document ?
Having replied to them back in April 2018 I received a letter from them to say "Thanks, sorry for the delay in responding, here's why the PCN was issued", with a repeat of the "how to pay" info. Is that a Rejection Notice ? If not, then my grounds for making the Statutory declaration would be the second option it offers: "I made representations about the penalty charge to the Council of the London Borough of Ealing, within 28 days of service of the PCN but I did not receive a rejection notice." Otherwise I don't see any relevant reasons. And yes, it's £195 plus £8 Court registration fee, so £203 ... This post has been edited by bazinga: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 12:50 |
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Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 12:59
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
No it wasn't a letter of rejection so you have the right to file the declaration on that basis.
This must be accepted and in this case the council must then refer the case to the tribunal for a decision on what happens. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 13:08 |
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Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 13:05
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
The letter you posted dated the 9th of April 2018 was not a notice of rejection so it does not appear you recieved one so can make the SD ( proviso being that you have shown us everything) The CC will be cancelled and you will get the opportunity to pay £130 or appeal if you appeal the adjudicator will want to see your challenge (it is actually formal representations as there is no informal challenge to MTC)
Once you send it and I would advise you do not do so without advice from here the adjudicator will make a direction it will be either pay up or submit an appeal. -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 5 Jun 2020 - 14:04
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#20
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 16 Apr 2018 Member No.: 97,538 |
Thanks all for the advice on this over the years (!)
The situation is that the local county court has just re-opened after a couple of months closure due to covid-19, but they're not ready for public appointments yet so can't get a SD witnessed there. They say maybe the magistrates court, or go to a solicitor. Either way it looks like the cost of that plus the unknown odds of having to pay up anyway aren't worth the pain. As it's been going on nearly three and a half years now, on mental health grounds we've decided to just pay the bastards to avoid the ongoing stress of never knowing when the next letter is going to drop in the letterbox ... |
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