PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Court Summons for 3 offences
mrmk
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:22
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 6 Apr 2018
Member No.: 97,406



Hi, I've sent sent a summons by Kent Police to attend court on the 16th of April for the following:

-Careless driving
-Failure to stop
-Failure to report


I was doing a 3 point turn on the 17th of August 2017 and I accidentaly bumped a parked car but didn't get out to check the other car because I didn't think significant damage was done. Anyways, interviewed on 3rd of December 2017 by police and a statement wasn't provided until the 13th of March 2018. In regards to the witness statement, it is dated as " 24th JULY 2017" which is a month before the incident happened. The witness does have CCTV footage of the incident and I admitted to bumping the car in the cautionary interview after being told this. I intend on pleading guilty; however, I don't want to lose my licence via totting up as I've only had it for a year now and am only 18. My question is what do you think will happen and does the incorrect date of the witness statement affect its admissibility? Also, how do I know when the papers were lodged with court? The Kent Police documents were printed on the 14th of February (just under 6 months) but the prosecutor's proof by written statement document is dated as the 5th of April 2018, which is more than 6 months after the incident.


Lastly, I have been asked to pay a £85 fine and to show income but I am a full-time student with no income and living with my parents so how would this work? Am I also eligible for free legal representation/help?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:22
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
peterguk
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:24
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,470
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:22) *
I have been asked to pay a £85 fine


In respect of what?


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mrmk
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:27
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 6 Apr 2018
Member No.: 97,406



to add to this:

-no one was injured
-there weren't any other cars on the road unless parked
-it was a side road
-i checked my own car and saw absolutely no damage so thought that the other car had none too but they're claiming that i dented the rear passenger side and scraped some paint off
-in the interview at first i said i didnt remember doing it and then remembered after being told about cctv footage - i doubt people remember what they did at 9am last week let alone 4 months before
-my licence is totally clean atm
-never had any trouble with the police prior to this

QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:24) *
QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:22) *
I have been asked to pay a £85 fine


In respect of what?



TO THE COURT: £85 COSTS ARE APPLIED FOR:

THE DECISION TO CHARGE VIA POSTAL REQUISITION _____
THIS POSTAL REQUISITION ADMINISTERED BY _____

This post has been edited by mrmk: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:30
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
peterguk
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:30
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,470
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:27) *
in the interview at first i said i didnt remember doing it and then remembered after being told about cctv footage - i doubt people remember what they did at 9am last week let alone 4 months before


It doesn't really matter since you intend pleading guilty, however i can tell you EXACTLY how many cars i have bumped in the last 5 years+.

To most people bumping a car would be a rare and memorable event.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mrmk
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:34
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 6 Apr 2018
Member No.: 97,406



QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:30) *
QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:27) *
in the interview at first i said i didnt remember doing it and then remembered after being told about cctv footage - i doubt people remember what they did at 9am last week let alone 4 months before


It doesn't really matter since you intend pleading guilty, however i can tell you EXACTLY how many cars i have bumped in the last 5 years+.

To most people bumping a car would be a rare and memorable event.


i'm just throwing that in to give people a greater understanding of the situation. what about in regards to the rest of what i said?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:10
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,269
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:27) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:24) *
QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:22) *
I have been asked to pay a £85 fine


In respect of what?



TO THE COURT: £85 COSTS ARE APPLIED FOR:

THE DECISION TO CHARGE VIA POSTAL REQUISITION _____
THIS POSTAL REQUISITION ADMINISTERED BY _____

Those would be costs of the prosecution, not a fine.

I doubt you’ll lose your licence through totting up, as that requires you to accumulate 12 points. Where offences are committed on the same occasion you normally only receive points for the most serious - in this case fail to stop, which carries 5 - 10 points. You might, therefore, get away with 5 points (or the court might impose more).

I am surprised the case has got this far - normally matters like this are dealt with by the police obtaining your details and then leaving it to the insurance companies to sort out.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mrmk
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:31
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 6 Apr 2018
Member No.: 97,406



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 01:10) *
QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:27) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:24) *
QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:22) *
I have been asked to pay a £85 fine


In respect of what?



TO THE COURT: £85 COSTS ARE APPLIED FOR:

THE DECISION TO CHARGE VIA POSTAL REQUISITION _____
THIS POSTAL REQUISITION ADMINISTERED BY _____

Those would be costs of the prosecution, not a fine.

I doubt you’ll lose your licence through totting up, as that requires you to accumulate 12 points. Where offences are committed on the same occasion you normally only receive points for the most serious - in this case fail to stop, which carries 5 - 10 points. You might, therefore, get away with 5 points (or the court might impose more).

I am surprised the case has got this far - normally matters like this are dealt with by the police obtaining your details and then leaving it to the insurance companies to sort out.



Insurance did deal with it too but on the witness' statement (the owner of the parked car), she put YES to whether she thinks i should be prosecuted or not so i guess that might be why. seeing this is quite minor in practical terms, would i be able to argue a case for a short period of disqualification instead of points? how can i do this and what would i be able to say in mitigation
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:34
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,269
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 01:31) *
would i be able to argue a case for a short period of disqualification instead of points? how can i do this and what would i be able to say in mitigation

You could try but I don’t see any of the offences being serious enough to warrant an outright ban.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mrmk
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:37
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 6 Apr 2018
Member No.: 97,406



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 01:34) *
QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 01:31) *
would i be able to argue a case for a short period of disqualification instead of points? how can i do this and what would i be able to say in mitigation

You could try but I don’t see any of the offences being serious enough to warrant an outright ban.


i would much prefer to be disqualified for up to 56 days than to risk getting points and potentially losing my licence for over a year


as for mitigation, what can i say? any ideas?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mrmk
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 01:42
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 6 Apr 2018
Member No.: 97,406



APOLOGIES FOR A MISTAKE


First page actually says MG4E Postal Requisition which I believe is different to a summons?


Apparently a PR mustn't be issued after more than 6 months which it was - is this true?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 06:12
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,896
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 01:37) *
i would much prefer to be disqualified for up to 56 days than to risk getting points and potentially losing my licence for over a year

If you got more points the standard totting ban is six months, so losing it for over a year is vanishingly unlikely.

As for what you can say in mitigation, nothing at all, you admit hitting a car, knowing you had done it and still fleeing the scene, I can’t see anything you can say that minimises that, it looks like a clear attempt to avoid your obligations (legal and moral).

As above the Police usually leave theses cases to insurers so would speculate that the amount of damage caused or the way you responded decided to make them take the more punitive approach, you mentioned an interview, did you,get an S172 notice in the post first? If your response to that was less than helpful if may explain the interview and court action.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Irksome
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 07:17
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 275
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
From: sw11
Member No.: 38,303



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:10) *
Those would be costs of the prosecution, not a fine.

I doubt you’ll lose your licence through totting up, as that requires you to accumulate 12 points. Where offences are committed on the same occasion you normally only receive points for the most serious - in this case fail to stop, which carries 5 - 10 points. You might, therefore, get away with 5 points (or the court might impose more).

I am surprised the case has got this far - normally matters like this are dealt with by the police obtaining your details and then leaving it to the insurance companies to sort out.


Having held his licence for less than 2 years it will be revoked if the OP receives 6 points or more?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 07:18
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,372
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



As a new driver it's 6 points that will see a revocation. (Not strictly a ban)

In regards to earnings, there's a minimum figure of £120/week.

QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:22) *
Am I also eligible for free legal representation/help?

No.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 07:25
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,286
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 08:18) *
As a new driver it's 6 points that will see a revocation. (Not strictly a ban) In regards to earnings, there's a minimum figure of £120/week.
QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:22) *
Am I also eligible for free legal representation/help?
No.


Some insurance policies cover legal advice. You are unlikely to get disqualification instead of points, apart from none of the offences appearing to be serious enough, courts are advised not to give disqualification to avoid revocation of new drivers.



--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 07:32
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,372
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 08:25) *
Some insurance policies cover legal advice.

True - worth checking. I think the OP was referring to 'Legal Aid'.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 07:33


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 11:01
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,286
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 08:32) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 08:25) *
Some insurance policies cover legal advice.
True - worth checking. I think the OP was referring to 'Legal Aid'.


So do I, but he may not have considered the possibility that his insurers might help so, as you say, worth checking.



--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mrmk
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 12:42
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 6 Apr 2018
Member No.: 97,406



I don't have legal help covered in my policy. Yes I did receive a NIP back in August or September. My main concern now is that the incident happened in August but I didn't get a postal requisition till April, which is more than 6 months after it happened.


Criminal Justice Act 2003 29 New method of instituting proceedings

(1)A public prosecutor may institute criminal proceedings against a person by issuing a document (a “written charge”) which charges the person with an offence.
(2)Where a public prosecutor issues a written charge, it must at the same time issue a document (a “requisition”) which requires the person to appear before a magistrates' court to answer the written charge.
(3)The written charge and requisition must be served on the person concerned, and a copy of both must be served on the court named in the requisition.
(4)In consequence of subsections (1) to (3), a public prosecutor is not to have the power to lay an information for the purpose of obtaining the issue of a summons under section 1 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 (c. 43).
(5)In this section “public prosecutor” means—
(a)a police force or a person authorised by a police force to institute criminal proceedings,


Then the The Criminal Procedure Rules 2015 says

(3) An authorised prosecutor who issues a written charge must notify the court officer immediately.

(4) A single document may contain—

(a)more than one information; or
(b)more than one written charge.
(5) Where an offence can be tried only in a magistrates’ court, then unless other legislation otherwise provides—

(a)a prosecutor must serve an information on the court officer or present it to the court; or
(b)an authorised prosecutor must issue a written charge,
not more than 6 months after the offence alleged.




My offences can only be tried in a magistrates court I believe and the information wasn't issued to me within 6 months - does this actually mean they can't do anything? The envelope says it was posted on the 5th of April and the latest signature was on behalf of the prosecutor on the 4th of April on the "notice to defendant: proof by written statement" sheet, all of which is outside of the 6 month period
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 15:54
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,465
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



It doesn't matter when you got the requisition, what counts is when they issued it. What date is printed on the paperwork?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mrmk
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 16:58
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 6 Apr 2018
Member No.: 97,406



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 16:54) *
It doesn't matter when you got the requisition, what counts is when they issued it. What date is printed on the paperwork?



Timeline of events


Accident on 17th of August 2017
NIP received like 2 weeks later
Police interview in December 2017
Postal requisition is DATED as 14th February 2018
Postal requisition and charges sent out on 5th April 2018 (says this on the envelope)
Received in the post on 6th April 2018



The definition of 'issue' according to dictionary.com is 'the act of sending out or putting forth; promulgation; distribution:'


It wasn't sent out to me until the 5th of April 2018, nearly 8 months after the accident so surely nothing can be done?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 17:03
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,269
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (mrmk @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 17:58) *
It wasn't sent out to me until the 5th of April 2018, nearly 8 months after the accident so surely nothing can be done?

You’re not the first one to think that. So far as I know, it’s been rejected in courts so far. I believe an appeal to the High Court is pending, which should resolve it one way or another.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Sunday, 22nd July 2018 - 10:51
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.