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Edinbugrh Council, 01 PARKED IN A RESTRICTED STREET DURING PRESCRIBED HOURS
craig51
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 16:14
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Hello all.




I received a ticket for

01 PARKED IN A RESTRICTED STREET DURING PRESCRIBED HOURS

From Edinburgh council.




I was parked here, under the arches where the red wheelie bin is,

Parking

I appealed this, and got this reply.






Thank you for your correspondence received on 23 February 2018.







We have considered your explanation but will not cancel your parking ticket under these circumstances.




The parking ticket was issued because the vehicle was parked on a footway that has a kerbside single yellow line restriction.




The Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 states that the "road" includes the "road’s verge" or pavement. This means that a parking ticket may be issued whether the vehicle is parked on the road or the pavement.




The Highway Code Rule 244 states that you must not park on the pavement.




The Council are allowed to control parking on any road, including road verges and pavements, where there is "public right of passage". This is covered by the Roads Scotland Act Section 151.




In view of the above we are satisfied that the parking ticket was correctly issued and will not be cancelled.




The charge was at the discount rate of £30.00 when we received your correspondence. We have given you a further 14 days from the date of this reply to pay the discount amount. If you pay within this time, the case will be closed. If we do not receive your payment, the discount will end and the full amount of £60.00 will be due.




If you want to continue to challenge the parking ticket, do not make payment; instead wait until we issue the Notice to Owner. We will send this to the registered keeper of the vehicle once the discount period has ended. Please note that the charge will then be £60.00.

Can I appeal this?






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post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 16:14
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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 17:11
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Maybe, please show us the PCN (all sides), and what you said in your appeal.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Incandescent
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 17:49
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Where exactly were you parked ? Edinburgh are quite correct as to the applicability of the yellow line, but it only applies up to the property line. Parked under the arch would not be part of the road.
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craig51
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 18:57
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I was parked right under the arch, no part of my car was overhanging the pavement etc , proof of pics etc .

I will post pic when i get home of ticket .
Attached Image


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Incandescent
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 22:23
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Then you challenge on the basis that the offence did not occur. They will then have to prove the road extends underneath the building, not an easy task for them, I think ! However, you're open to prosecution by the polis for driving over the pavement if you do it in future.
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peterguk
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 22:26
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If building is council-owned, would the area in question then be classed as part of the road?


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craig51
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 23:07
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The building above is flats . I own two of them . The rest that i am aware of are privately owned .

They were ex council years ago .

I agree the police could do someone for driving over etc , but the parking ticket received is wrong imo .

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stamfordman
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 23:26
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Let's see pic of car in place. have you checked council website?
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craig51
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 23:33
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Attached Image


You can see that am parked right in under the arches . I can’t go any further forward as there is a small concrete bollard
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stamfordman
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 23:44
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If that's not a public right of passage then you win.

But I wouldn't park there again. Reversing out across the pavement must be a no no.

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Incandescent
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 23:47
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Looks like either a badly trained CEO, or they want to intimidate you after somebody complained. Is where you parked signed as "no public right of way" or what the Scottish equivalent is ? Why not apply for dropped kerb access and make it officially a parking spot in combination with the other flat owners. You'd need to have some sort of barrier to close the area off behind the car, like a chain or something. Whatever you do, you need to get them off your back, because there is nothing to stop them issuing PCNs until Domesday, even if on appeal they are cancelled.
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craig51
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 23:58
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So the public as far as I’m aware have every right to walk under the arches to acces Chessels court etc .
I also have another ticket on appeal .
But IMO just because the public have a right of way, this doesn’t make it under the council remit under the reason i was “done for”.

Sure the police can issue me a ticket etc , but in terms of parking i believe I’ve done no wrong .

So would you my fellow forum users take this to the adjudicator ?
It’s only £30 extra if i do .

Attached Image


Does this help, with the red boundary is the number 234 . Under there are the arches
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cp8759
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:12
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QUOTE (craig51 @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 23:07) *
I agree the police could do someone for driving over etc , but the parking ticket received is wrong imo .

I'm not so sure, you can drive on the pavement in order to lawfully park on land or access premises adjacent to the road. Unless the police can show you were a trespasser when you parked your car there, they cannot prosecute. I would however recommend you confirm 100% who owns the land before parking there again.

QUOTE (craig51 @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 23:58) *
Does this help, with the red boundary is the number 234 . Under there are the arches

This is powerful evidence that you car was not on a road or highway, I would appeal.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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craig51
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:22
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Thanks , i beleove that the pavement only reaches up to the red line. After that it’s the property of all owners in the area defined in red . Ie me .

As such it’s my view i was not parked wrongly .

So off to adjudication i go .
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Longtime Lurker
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:28
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They are relying on the Roads Scotland Act Section 151.

Having read that (here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/54/section/151 ) the definitions section gives detail about what counts as a road:

"“road” means, subject to subsection (3) below, any way (other than a waterway) over which there is a public right of passage (by whatever means [F17and whether subject to a toll or not]) and includes the road’s verge, and any bridge (whether permanent or temporary) over which, or tunnel through which, the road passes; and any reference to a road includes a part thereof;"

so, it looks like you win if Chessel's Court is covered by subsection (3):

"(3)This Act does not confer any power or impose any duty as regards a road or proposed road which—
(a)being a footpath only, is a public path created under section 30 of the Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967 (power of planning authority to create public paths by agreement);"

...and you lose if not. It gets complex here as the Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967 has been repealed, but the original is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/8...tion/30/enacted

You may need to do some digging into the history of how the public came to be allowed to walk under your flats. Possibly the title deeds to your flats will say something about this?

This post has been edited by Longtime Lurker: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:32
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craig51
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:41
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It’s not explicitly mentioned but these two key sentences i think are my golden tickets.

“Subject part of cadastral units ias outlined in red “ and,
“And d, the solum on which the dwellinghouses are erected”.

Before these flats were built , it was just an open gap into Chessels court .The flats were then built with these arches . Indeed the lights under the arches are controlled by a timer in one of the blocks , ie not council controlled .

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cp8759
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:44
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QUOTE (Longtime Lurker @ Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:28) *
You may need to do some digging into the history of how the public came to be allowed to walk under your flats. Possibly the title deeds to your flats will say something about this?

+1, for all we know there might not be any right of passage at all, it might simply be that the public are allowed to walk there by the implied permission of the owner. I assume that, as in England & Wales, it is possible for a right of way to be created by continuous use over a period of time, but once the issue is raised it is for the council to prove the land in question is, on the balance of probabilities, a "road".

Also, the PCN gives the location of the contravention as "Chessel's Court", so for the restriction to exist there must be yellow lines on Chessel's Court. The council can't argue that the yellow lines on the main road outside can extend to Chessel's Court. Which raises another interesting question, is there even a parking TRO for Chessel's Court? As it's not overtly open to vehicular traffic, I suspect not. In any event I've made an FOI request to find out.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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craig51
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:56
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Thanks for all your help thus far .
In the actual courtyard is a road , on google maps you’ll see this called “ Gillian’s close “ .
This is entrred off a side road and you pass a CPZ zone marker plate . Ie the one on my ticket .
But there is no way to access the arches from here by car as there are two concrete posts and a square of concrete .
In this pic
https://goo.gl/images/hpu9Fn
You can see the art structure and then behind that a car parked in the control zone .
My car would be behind the person taking this pic , being stopped by another post .

But there are no yellows at all under the arches or in the square where that art structure thing was .



This post has been edited by craig51: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:58
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cp8759
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 00:59
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For the ticket to be upheld, the council have to show that:

1) your car was parked in Chessel's Court.
2) There is a TRO for Chessel's Court which makes it a restricted street.
3) There are valid signs, lines or other lawful means by which the restriction is conveyed to motorists.

I have my doubts about 2, and I don't see how they could prove 3. Just to confirm, there's no yellow lines where you were parked?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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craig51
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 01:00
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Correct .

There are no signs or markings or anything when parking under the arches . Nothing at all.

Nearest restrictions are the yellow on the royal mile itself which they refer to , and the cpz permit parking on gullanes close .


This post has been edited by craig51: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 01:03
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