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Private Land Resident Parking, Parking Enforcement & Security Services
Ecko
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 08:58
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Hi all,

Hope you're well. My wife and I have both received parking tickets on the estate that we live in. We were parking in what is effectively the visitor bays. She has a permit but forgot to display it, I have a permit on my car but currently driving a courtesy car (from a hire company which is a standard hire with costs recovered from third party insurance) as my vehicle was in the garage for repair.

Below are the signs and tickets, do I stand a chance of appealing these tickets? If so should I appeal directly to PESS? Do we have any right of appeal on the basis that we are residents of the estate?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.







This post has been edited by Ecko: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 18:07
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post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 08:58
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Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 09:06
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They are on the BPA list here.

That will give them the ability to access the DVLA. However, it will probably be best to avoid them accessing the DVLA (especially for the courtesy car) by appealling as the KEEPER around day 22-24.

For keeper liability they have to access the DVLA and most PPC's are greedy and not like spending those £2.50's to get the details if they can avoid it.

You may be residents but in their minds they won't care. Unless your lease/tenancy gives you primacy over their signs then they won't go away.

However, they've never raised a court claim to date.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 09:07


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 09:15
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First step

Remove the PCN number from your pictures

Don't contact PESS yet regarding your wife's vehcile
There are two schools of thought whether to wait for the Notice to Keeper to arrive or appeal on Day 26 so they don't contact the DVLA
This will prevent them recovering payment from the registered keeper if they don't know who was driving

Regarding the courtesy car, definitely don't contact PESS
Unless the garage provides your details, there is nothing PESS can do

PESS is listed as an AOS member under its full name

It's not, however, entitled to display the logo of the Information Commissioners Office who would be interested to know

What does your lease say about parking ?
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Ecko
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 09:24
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 09:15) *
First step

Remove the PCN number from your pictures

Don't contact PESS yet regarding your wife's vehcile
There are two schools of thought whether to wait for the Notice to Keeper to arrive or appeal on Day 26 so they don't contact the DVLA
This will prevent them recovering payment from the registered keeper if they don't know who was driving

Regarding the courtesy car, definitely don't contact PESS
Unless the garage provides your details, there is nothing PESS can do

PESS is listed as an AOS member under its full name

It's not, however, entitled to display the logo of the Information Commissioners Office who would be interested to know

What does your lease say about parking ?


Hi Redivi,

Hope you're well. Apologies, I should have mentioned that it's a courtesy car provided by a hire company, would they not readily provide my details?

The rental agreement doesn't mention anything about parking.
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Redivi
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 10:15
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OK

I thought it was a garage courtesy car

The hire company would provide your details BUT PESS must include a copy of your hire agreement when they contact you
This is where all parking companies fail to meet the conditions to recover payment from the hirer

What contract have you personally signed with the hire company ?
Most of them charge about £36 admin fee to reply to a parking company
One that specialises in cars for insurance claims charges £72

If you signed such a contract, you're better off keeping the hire company out of the loop and appealing the windscreen ticket

As an aside, parking companies employed to manage residential areas always create more problems than they solve
There are never enough unauthorised vehicles so the only way they can make a profit is charging authorised users for trivial reasons

The operatives know perfectly well which vehicles belong to residents and have no reason to inspect them for permits
All they ever need is a list

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Ecko
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 10:35
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I believe it was just a standard hire agreement, with the only proviso being that they will recover their rental costs from the third party insurance company.

Do I have any grounds for appeal?

Also regarding my wife's car, if I wait for NTO/NTK what would e the next step? Should I appeal the ticket in the meantime?
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ostell
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 10:41
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I think appeal both AS THE KEEPER so that the appeal arrives just before the end of the time given, as per previous advice. Appeal separately, ie not in the same envelope. Edit your post so that the identity of the drivers cannot be inferred. It may persuade them not to access the DVLA and then there will not be an enforceable Notice to Keeper, or even a Notice to Keeper at all.
What does your lease say about parking? Does that contract have primacy over the parking company? You already have a contract and that probably has a section about parking.

I note they are calling it a FINE. Naughty.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 10:43
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Ecko
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 10:53
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Hi Ostell,

I can't see anything in my tenancy agreement about parking. Just some stuff about not having caravans or repairing vehicles in the grounds.
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ostell
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 11:40
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And quiet enjoyment? So it doesn't mention having to display a permit nor pay a charge to a third party company if you don't?

Please edit that first post.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 11:41
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Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 11:59
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 10:41) *
I note they are calling it a FINE. Naughty.

I usually don't get that excited about 'FINE' but I would argue this is in breach of BPA's CoP: (Misrepresentation of Authority)

QUOTE
14.2 You must not use terms which imply that parking is
being managed, controlled and enforced under statutory
authority. This includes using terms such as ‘fine’, ‘penalty’
or ‘penalty charge notice’.


Dropping a line to the BPA will see a slap on the wrist at least... laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 12:00


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ManxRed
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 13:04
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 11:59) *
Dropping a line to the BPA will see a slap on the wrist at least... laugh.gif


And a stationery bill for amended paperwork!


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Ecko
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 13:14
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 11:40) *
And quiet enjoyment? So it doesn't mention having to display a permit nor pay a charge to a third party company if you don't?

Please edit that first post.


Absolutely nothing about a third party company charge or parking management.

QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 11:59) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 10:41) *
I note they are calling it a FINE. Naughty.

I usually don't get that excited about 'FINE' but I would argue this is in breach of BPA's CoP: (Misrepresentation of Authority)

QUOTE
14.2 You must not use terms which imply that parking is
being managed, controlled and enforced under statutory
authority. This includes using terms such as ‘fine’, ‘penalty’
or ‘penalty charge notice’.


Dropping a line to the BPA will see a slap on the wrist at least... laugh.gif


Can I appeal on the grounds that it's a misrepresentation of authority and that they are in breach of BPA's CoP?
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Redivi
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 14:32
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I would include it as an appeal point but first complain to the BPA and the ICO

The BPA will sometimes order parking notices to be cancelled
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Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 14:41
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QUOTE (Ecko @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 13:14) *
Can I appeal on the grounds that it's a misrepresentation of authority and that they are in breach of BPA's CoP?

You can appeal that the moon is a funny shape. I doubt they'll accept that either... wink.gif


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 15:47
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You can appeal on the grounds that you your lease does not require you to display a permit when parking. Your lease provides parking and is superior to any contract that they allege they have with you. Why would you agree to a contact for parking when you already have that right?
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Eljayjay
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 17:05
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But according to post #8, "I can't see anything in my tenancy agreement about parking.".
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ostell
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:16
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 17:05) *
But according to post #8, "I can't see anything in my tenancy agreement about parking.".

In the contract quiet enjoyment is an understood, ie you can use your flat without interference. Ubderstand this to include vehicles on the site apart from caravans and repairing them. As a judge recently said flat living would be impossible if you are unable to park a car.

Could the OP look for "Quiet Enjoyment" in the lease.

And it's still possible to identify the drivers in the first post !

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:20
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Fluffykins
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:17
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 17:05) *
But according to post #8, "I can't see anything in my tenancy agreement about parking.".

Precisely.
The lease doesn't require a permit
The lease doesn't oblige You to pay any penalty
The lease doesn't give any third party rights of any kind
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Eljayjay
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 23:55
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Ecko is a sub-tenant.

As a sub-tenant, Ecko's rights are constrained by the rights of the Tenant under the head lease. The Tenant under the head lease is Ecko's landlord.

If Ecko's landlord has no parking rights under the head lease (and there are numerous everyday examples where a Tenant under a head lease has no parking rights), then Ecko will have no parking rights.

If Ecko's landlord does have parking rights under the head lease, then Ecko will only acquire parking rights if Ecko's tenancy agreement conveys the parking rights to Ecko. Ecko's tenancy agreement does not, however, say anything about parking rights. So, Ecko cannot have acquired any parking rights by that means.

If, despite this, Ecko has by some other route acquired parking rights, it is quite possible that they may be subject to the signage.

In Link Parking v Blaney and Blaney (C9GF03Q9), one of the reasons why the Blaneys lost was that, although they were sub-tenants of a flat whose leasehold owner (i.e. the Tenant under the head lease) had an allocated parking space, the Tenant had not conveyed the right to park in that space to them in their tenancy agreement.

District Judge Pratt - no sniggering at the back - found in Link Parking v Blaney and Blaney that the parking company was party to a valid scheme, that the Blaneys had not parked in accordance with the rules of the scheme, and the Blaneys lost.

I really do not wish to put a dampener on others' enthusiasm for Ecko's case. At the same time, however, I think Ecko needs more than what his tenancy agreement says about parking (which is almost nothing).
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Ecko
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:13
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 23:55) *
Ecko is a sub-tenant.

As a sub-tenant, Ecko's rights are constrained by the rights of the Tenant under the head lease. The Tenant under the head lease is Ecko's landlord.

If Ecko's landlord has no parking rights under the head lease (and there are numerous everyday examples where a Tenant under a head lease has no parking rights), then Ecko will have no parking rights.

If Ecko's landlord does have parking rights under the head lease, then Ecko will only acquire parking rights if Ecko's tenancy agreement conveys the parking rights to Ecko. Ecko's tenancy agreement does not, however, say anything about parking rights. So, Ecko cannot have acquired any parking rights by that means.

If, despite this, Ecko has by some other route acquired parking rights, it is quite possible that they may be subject to the signage.

In Link Parking v Blaney and Blaney (C9GF03Q9), one of the reasons why the Blaneys lost was that, although they were sub-tenants of a flat whose leasehold owner (i.e. the Tenant under the head lease) had an allocated parking space, the Tenant had not conveyed the right to park in that space to them in their tenancy agreement.

District Judge Pratt - no sniggering at the back - found in Link Parking v Blaney and Blaney that the parking company was party to a valid scheme, that the Blaneys had not parked in accordance with the rules of the scheme, and the Blaneys lost.

I really do not wish to put a dampener on others' enthusiasm for Ecko's case. At the same time, however, I think Ecko needs more than what his tenancy agreement says about parking (which is almost nothing).


Hi Eljayjay,

Many thanks for your response. The landlords passed on their permits to us, however, since those permits were given to us, another company has taken over and they have only provided us with one permit. I will appeal my ticket on the basis of extenuating circumstances, that my car, with the permit is currently in the garage and my wife's ticket on the basis that she did display her permit but it may have fallen off the dashboard. As weak as it may seem, I don't think I have any other choice.

Some people have suggested to wait for NTK on my wife's car, is that a wise move? Should I not respond to the ticket at all?
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