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PCN in Reading Town centre, Not parked on road
MFM
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:36
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I got a PCN from Reading council today for not displaying a valid parking ticket. I wasn't parked on the road where the signs are and the restrictions apply. I was parked adjacent on a piece of land where they have a market every day apart from Sundays.

People have been parking there forever as they have never enforced the parking regulations there, plus there are no signs prohibiting you from parking there in the first place.

In the picture my car is the white Audi. The parking where you should display a parking ticket is to the left where the row of cars are. You can also see the sign. Should I fight this, as I think it's an overzealous parking warden taking a chance?
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post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:36
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MFM
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:04
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:57) *
If it was me i would be telling them to go f themselves. So you parked on the pavement. Not an offence of its self in reading, though the police might consider obstruction. They cannot issue a PCN just because they don't like how you parked


What is the legal standpoint of parking on a pavement and council in general?
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DancingDad
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:15
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QUOTE (MFM @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:04) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:57) *
If it was me i would be telling them to go f themselves. So you parked on the pavement. Not an offence of its self in reading, though the police might consider obstruction. They cannot issue a PCN just because they don't like how you parked


What is the legal standpoint of parking on a pavement and council in general?


Outside London, footway parking restrictions rely on traffic orders and signs or yellow line restrictions that may apply.
Nothing else counts for councils.
Police can take action though.

But is irrelevant here.
They are trying it on and if you stick with it, will fail.
As close to 100% certainty as we ever can be.
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MFM
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:19
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:15) *
QUOTE (MFM @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:04) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:57) *
If it was me i would be telling them to go f themselves. So you parked on the pavement. Not an offence of its self in reading, though the police might consider obstruction. They cannot issue a PCN just because they don't like how you parked


What is the legal standpoint of parking on a pavement and council in general?


Outside London, footway parking restrictions rely on traffic orders and signs or yellow line restrictions that may apply.
Nothing else counts for councils.
Police can take action though.

But is irrelevant here.
They are trying it on and if you stick with it, will fail.
As close to 100% certainty as we ever can be.


Good to know thanks.

It says an NTO will be sent to the registered keeper(which is my wife) if the fine remains unpaid. Can I appeal and if it got to it, go through the adjudication process instead of her?
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DancingDad
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:47
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QUOTE (MFM @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:19) *
..........It says an NTO will be sent to the registered keeper(which is my wife) if the fine remains unpaid. Can I appeal and if it got to it, go through the adjudication process instead of her?


Yes
You can challenge and appeal "On her Behalf"
She needs to countersign to show her agreement.

You cannot challenge or appeal in your own name though, only on her behalf.
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MFM
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:53
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:47) *
QUOTE (MFM @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:19) *
..........It says an NTO will be sent to the registered keeper(which is my wife) if the fine remains unpaid. Can I appeal and if it got to it, go through the adjudication process instead of her?


Yes
You can challenge and appeal "On her Behalf"
She needs to countersign to show her agreement.

You cannot challenge or appeal in your own name though, only on her behalf.


What about if it goes to adjudication? She won't be able to go herself so if I can't do it in her place then this is a no go.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:56
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QUOTE (MFM @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:53) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:47) *
QUOTE (MFM @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:19) *
..........It says an NTO will be sent to the registered keeper(which is my wife) if the fine remains unpaid. Can I appeal and if it got to it, go through the adjudication process instead of her?


Yes
You can challenge and appeal "On her Behalf"
She needs to countersign to show her agreement.

You cannot challenge or appeal in your own name though, only on her behalf.


What about if it goes to adjudication? She won't be able to go herself so if I can't do it in her place then this is a no go.


I've done exactly that with PCNs in my wife's name.
As long as she has given her permission, perfectly acceptable for you to represent her. Never had it queried. She does not have to be there.
Though will be a telephone hearing these days or on papers.
Just needs a very simple note..... As the owner and registered keeper of vehicle ????? I permit my husband (name) to represent me regarding PCN ????...signed, date and printed name.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:58
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MFM
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 15:03
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:15) *
Outside London, footway parking restrictions rely on traffic orders and signs or yellow line restrictions that may apply.


Just one thing. To get onto the pavement, you have to cross double yellow lines running along the pay and display bays via a dropped curb. Would this be a problem for my defense at all?
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DancingDad
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 15:11
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QUOTE (MFM @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 15:03) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:15) *
Outside London, footway parking restrictions rely on traffic orders and signs or yellow line restrictions that may apply.


Just one thing. To get onto the pavement, you have to cross double yellow lines running along the pay and display bays via a dropped curb. Would this be a problem for my defense at all?


Nope.

As far as the contravention cited is concerned, there is nothing anyone can enforce.

You may have gone through 3 No Entry signs and a set of red lights but that has no bearing.
Nor does driving over DYLs or driving along a footway.
May not be clever but that is not the contravention they are trying to enforce.


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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 00:01
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:57) *
Not an offence of its self in reading

Section 72 of the Highways Act 1835 says otherwise (unless you park the car by lowering it onto the pavement with a crane), although I very much doubt the police would take much interest there have been instances where that section has been used to prevent pavement parking.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 09:52
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 00:01) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:57) *
Not an offence of its self in reading

Section 72 of the Highways Act 1835 says otherwise (unless you park the car by lowering it onto the pavement with a crane), although I very much doubt the police would take much interest there have been instances where that section has been used to prevent pavement parking.


That is the difference though.
The council cannot enforce.
The police can, even if not seen driving along the footway, parking up on it could be seen as obstruction and attract a Fixed Penalty Ticket from them (or worse)
But in this case, the council are trying it on with no powers to do so.
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MFM
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:02
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 09:52) *
That is the difference though.
The council cannot enforce.
The police can, even if not seen driving along the footway, parking up on it could be seen as obstruction and attract a Fixed Penalty Ticket from them (or worse)
But in this case, the council are trying it on with no powers to do so.


Just for my benefit, how does the council not have any power to fine you for parking on the pavement?
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DancingDad
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:11
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QUOTE (MFM @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:02) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 09:52) *
That is the difference though.
The council cannot enforce.
The police can, even if not seen driving along the footway, parking up on it could be seen as obstruction and attract a Fixed Penalty Ticket from them (or worse)
But in this case, the council are trying it on with no powers to do so.


Just for my benefit, how does the council not have any power to fine you for parking on the pavement?

Because there is no general ban on footway parking outside London so unless council have created a specific Traffic Order and put up relevant signs, councils cannot touch you.
They can only enforce if they have done the relevant.

Many times people get caught by Yellow Lines when on footway. They do apply across highway (from centre to border) and include footways.
Reading tried that in that market place before but cited the wrong road.
But parking bay restrictions only apply in the related parking bay.

Otherwise it is police and while they often ignore, they sometimes wake up.
Here for instance...... http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117966

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:11
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MFM
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:25
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:11) *
Because there is no general ban on footway parking outside London so unless council have created a specific Traffic Order and put up relevant signs, councils cannot touch you.
They can only enforce if they have done the relevant.

Many times people get caught by Yellow Lines when on footway. They do apply across highway (from centre to border) and include footways.
Reading tried that in that market place before but cited the wrong road.
But parking bay restrictions only apply in the related parking bay.

Otherwise it is police and while they often ignore, they sometimes wake up.
Here for instance...... http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117966


Ok, so if the council issued the PCN for crossing the yellow lines by parking on the pavement, it would stick? I'm contemplating whether to keep parking there if I get this PCN cancelled. biggrin.gif
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:48
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QUOTE (MFM @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:25) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:11) *
Because there is no general ban on footway parking outside London so unless council have created a specific Traffic Order and put up relevant signs, councils cannot touch you.
They can only enforce if they have done the relevant.

Many times people get caught by Yellow Lines when on footway. They do apply across highway (from centre to border) and include footways.
Reading tried that in that market place before but cited the wrong road.
But parking bay restrictions only apply in the related parking bay.

Otherwise it is police and while they often ignore, they sometimes wake up.
Here for instance...... http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117966


Ok, so if the council issued the PCN for crossing the yellow lines by parking on the pavement, it would stick? I'm contemplating whether to keep parking there if I get this PCN cancelled. biggrin.gif


Not for crossing, a YL indicates a waiting restriction so it would be for parking, if you drive over the YL to an area beyond its restriction then police can have you, its an offence to drive on the pavement


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 00:01) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:57) *
Not an offence of its self in reading

Section 72 of the Highways Act 1835 says otherwise (unless you park the car by lowering it onto the pavement with a crane), although I very much doubt the police would take much interest there have been instances where that section has been used to prevent pavement parking.

As the offence is driving on the footpath, the action would need to be reliably witnessed, the car could be pushed there. But not something for the council
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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 16:27
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:48) *
As the offence is driving on the footpath, the action would need to be reliably witnessed, the car could be pushed there. But not something for the council

Not quite, the offence is to "wilfully lead or drive any horse, ass, sheep, mule, swine, or cattle or carriage of any description, or any truck or sledge", pushing a car would fall within this definition. But definitely not one for the council.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 17:51
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QUOTE (MFM @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:25) *
............ I'm contemplating whether to keep parking there if I get this PCN cancelled. biggrin.gif

And hope the council does not decide to ask police for help?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 22:43
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The law:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7

Your case falls under s4(2)(d), or would if it wasn't tripe. Reading's not in Essex or Exeter is it??

So, the contravention has nothing to do with P&D despite your best efforts to lead us astray on this point. It is solely that you failed to park correctly IN a parking place.

Your defence: you weren't in a b****y parking place.

Game over, appeal allowed, march out.

The authority's ludicrous position: you were near a parking place and so not parked correctly in it. The same would apply if you were on the moon i.e. not parked correctly within that parking place.

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MFM
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 10:27
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 17:51) *
And hope the council does not decide to ask police for help?


It probably wouldn't be a good idea if they did ask the police for help. My only gripe is that people have been parking there for years without any hassle from the council or police so something has changed recently for them to target motorists like they have. What annoys me is the way they're issuing PCN's incorrectly knowing full well they're not valid and then turning down appeals.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 22:43) *
So, the contravention has nothing to do with P&D despite your best efforts to lead us astray on this point.


Who is this aimed at as I'm a little confused?

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 12:11) *
Otherwise it is police and while they often ignore, they sometimes wake up.
Here for instance...... http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117966


I'm wondering whether the same would apply where I parked as it's a secluded area with no through traffic as there's a dead end. Also very few pedestrians unless the market is there.

This post has been edited by MFM: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 10:22
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cp8759
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 15:01
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QUOTE (MFM @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 10:27) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 17:51) *
And hope the council does not decide to ask police for help?


It probably wouldn't be a good idea if they did ask the police for help.

By the time you found out they had asked the police for help, it would be too late, you would have already committed the offence and you would have no defence. You choices are to park elsewhere, or park there knowing that if you are caught by the police you will have to pay a fine.

But at least getting the PCN cancelled should not be a problem in this instance.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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MFM
post Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 11:11
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I received the NTO. I'm going to make representations along the following lines. Please let me know if it looks ok.

I was not parked in a parking bay.
I was not parked where payment was required.
There are no signs in the area where I parked that require payment or relate to that area.
The signs that relate to marked out bays on the carriageway only relate to those marked bays.
Section s4(2)(d) of the Traffic Management Act 2004 applies meaning no offense was committed.
The contravention cited is incorrect.
The contravention did not occur.

NTO
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