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PCN in Reading Town centre, Not parked on road
MFM
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:36
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I got a PCN from Reading council today for not displaying a valid parking ticket. I wasn't parked on the road where the signs are and the restrictions apply. I was parked adjacent on a piece of land where they have a market every day apart from Sundays.

People have been parking there forever as they have never enforced the parking regulations there, plus there are no signs prohibiting you from parking there in the first place.

In the picture my car is the white Audi. The parking where you should display a parking ticket is to the left where the row of cars are. You can also see the sign. Should I fight this, as I think it's an overzealous parking warden taking a chance?
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post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:36
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makara
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:38
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Post up Front and Back of the PCN - edit out personal details.
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MFM
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:53
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QUOTE (makara @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:38) *
Post up Front and Back of the PCN - edit out personal details.


Actually it says the PCN is for not parking within the markings of the bay, which makes even less sense.
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StuartBu
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:54
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QUOTE (MFM @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:36) *
I got a PCN from Reading council today for not displaying a valid parking ticket. I wasn't parked on the road where the signs are and the restrictions apply. I was parked adjacent on a piece of land where they have a market every day apart from Sundays.

People have been parking there forever as they have never enforced the parking regulations there, plus there are no signs prohibiting you from parking there in the first place.

In the picture my car is the white Audi. The parking where you should display a parking ticket is to the left where the row of cars are. You can also see the sign. Should I fight this, as I think it's an overzealous parking warden taking a chance?

How do you access and leave where you are parked...is it by using what is behind your car... looks like a footpath or walkway...presumably there are no lines or signs along there...what is the building. its usually said that yellow lines cover from the centre of the carriageway that they are on right to the property line .
Can you post a GSV link or say where the location is.
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MFM
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:02
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:54) *
How do you access and leave where you are parked...is it by using what is behind your car... looks like a footpath or walkway...presumably there are no lines or signs along there...what is the building. its usually said that yellow lines cover from the centre of the carriageway that they are on right to the property line .
Can you post a GSV link or say where the location is.


https://goo.gl/maps/ozLdue5nM7S2

At the end of the road there is space to turn left into the market area.

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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:15
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You would need to argue that the pavement is not a designated parking area, that the P&D nor the bays apply so no contravention
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StuartBu
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:18
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QUOTE (MFM @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:02) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 20:54) *
How do you access and leave where you are parked...is it by using what is behind your car... looks like a footpath or walkway...presumably there are no lines or signs along there...what is the building. its usually said that yellow lines cover from the centre of the carriageway that they are on right to the property line .
Can you post a GSV link or say where the location is.


https://goo.gl/maps/ozLdue5nM7S2

At the end of the road there is space to turn left into the market area.


Try this link https://goo.gl/maps/deMNCyi2pqq

Problem is I cant navigate along that street ..presumably the GSV Car didn't go right along .
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4101
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:18
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Compliant?

(2) A penalty charge notice served under [ regulation 9 or 9A ]
1
of the General Regulations must,
in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the
General Regulations, include the following information—
(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations
to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator
if those representations are rejected; and
(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may
be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i) those representations will be considered;
(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations,
representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner
and at the time specified in the notice to owner
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:28
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QUOTE (4101 @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:18) *
Compliant?

(2) A penalty charge notice served under [ regulation 9 or 9A ]
1
of the General Regulations must,
in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the
General Regulations, include the following information—
(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations
to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator
if those representations are rejected; and
(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may
be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i) those representations will be considered;
(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations,
representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner
and at the time specified in the notice to owner


QUOTE
Compliant?


I think so
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4101
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:38
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Where does it say that?
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:53
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Here's the Order--The Hosier Street stuff and map is right at the end:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ading/RG182.pdf

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 22:04
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:53) *
Here's the Order--The Hosier Street stuff and map is right at the end:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ading/RG182.pdf

Mick


This London case is relevant then. The pavement is not part of the parking area under restriction


2180027704

The Appellant, Mr O. Igwebuike appeared before me today, 24th February 2018, to explain the contention personally. Miss P. Addae also attended in the capacity of witness as to fact since she is also a driver of vehicle SD03SOC and a resident at the location and as such has researched the site plans of the relevant location.
The Enforcement Authority assert the whereabouts of the said vehicle at the relevant time, on the material date, to be at a location subject to a restriction requiring the display of an applicable and valid permit.
The Enforcement Authority assert the absence of permit display in respect of the said vehicle.
The Appellant denies liability for the ensuing Penalty Charge Notice on the basis of the prevailing circumstances/challenge as stated in the written representations, supported by photographic capture and corresponding site plan diagrams, which Miss Addae reiterated and comprehensively detailed at the Hearing.
The Enforcement Authority who assert that the said vehicle was so parked contrary to, and during the operative period of, a restriction are obliged to adduce evidence to the requisite standard to substantiate that assertion.
The evidence upon which the Enforcement Authority rely comprises the certified copy Penalty Charge Notice, governing Traffic Management Order provisions and notes made by the Civil Enforcement Officer together with photographic evidence: still frames taken revealing the said vehicle in situ.
Examination of the images demonstrates the said vehicle within an area demarked by differentiating brickwork which has the appearance of an off-carriageway bay. It is not possible to determine the position or proximity of the signage to that of the said vehicle.
Indeed such signs face outward from, and relate to the area/s behind and beyond the sign itself, so that the motorist is able to note the Restricted Parking information upon driving into the zone, and unless otherwise stated such a zone relates to carriageway areas.
The Enforcement Authority also adduce annotated plans incorporating images; these are of limited evidential value since the knowledge of the annotator is unknown.
Evidentially I cannot be satisfied that the location falls within such area as that subject to restriction.
Miss Addae referred me to site plans which demonstrate the highway areas as distinct from those off-carriageway.
I had the benefit of assessing and questioning the Appellant and Miss Addae about the layout of the area at the Hearing; I found their evidence to be cogent and credible and I accepted it in its entirety.
Evidentially I am not satisfied that a contravention occurred, accordingly I allow this Appeal.

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MFM
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 08:55
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:15) *
You would need to argue that the pavement is not a designated parking area, that the P&D nor the bays apply so no contravention


So I should write an appeal letter to the council on only the above point, or is there anything else I can mention?
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DancingDad
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 09:27
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QUOTE (MFM @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 08:55) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 21:15) *
You would need to argue that the pavement is not a designated parking area, that the P&D nor the bays apply so no contravention


So I should write an appeal letter to the council on only the above point, or is there anything else I can mention?


Just play it straight, I was not parked within a parking bay so no P&D ticket was due or needed to be displayed.

But could we see the P&D bay sign please, streetview is not much good here.
And any council photos if Reading put them on their website.
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MFM
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 11:10
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 09:27) *
Just play it straight, I was not parked within a parking bay so no P&D ticket was due or needed to be displayed.

But could we see the P&D bay sign please, streetview is not much good here.
And any council photos if Reading put them on their website.


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MFM
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 12:21
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I have found this case where someone parked in the same area as me, but was issued with a different PCN. It looks like they are just making up reasons to fine people parking there.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=111585
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DancingDad
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 12:41
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QUOTE (MFM @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 12:21) *
I have found this case where someone parked in the same area as me, but was issued with a different PCN. It looks like they are just making up reasons to fine people parking there.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=111585


Knew I'd seen the street name before but GSV location wasn't ringing a bell.
That case relied on the OP not actually being parked on Hoosier Street plus restriction signs being too far away if it was decided they were on Hoosier.
We didn't see the decision but have to assume one of those grounds won.

You were parked on Hoosier but not during time when the yellow lines were operative.
Which is why they are trying it on with the non payment.
But have to show you were in a parking space that required payment to make that stick.

Reading really ought to do this right if they do not want people parking on the market area.... an order and footway parking ban would do it with a few signs.
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 13:04
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+1 with that last statement.

OP--- when you submit reps try not to mention "road" or even "highway" --the latter for instance relates to the pavement too. Keep it to not being in a designated parking place as specified in the Borough of Reading (Pay and Display) (Civil Enforcement Area) Order 2017 and its associated plans.

Mick
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MFM
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:13
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So surprise surprise, the council rejected my appeal. Their reasons for doing so seem suggestive at best and clutching at straws as far as I can tell. Saying things like, "If you had meant to park in the Pay and Display bay then this is in the road within the marked bays". No, I didn't mean to park in the Pay and Display bays, obviously. And, "The sign for the parking bay is just in front of your vehicle facing away from your vehicle. This informs the motorist that the parking is in the road and not on the pavement area". The sign might be for the parking bays in the road, but I never intended to park there.

They also say, "This should be sufficient information for the motorist to know where they can park and that the footpath over the kerb is not a place to park instead". By their own admission the signage isn't very clear due to, "This should be sufficient information for the motorist to know where they can park", which is open to interpretation.

Could I easily fight this or should I pay the fine? It's only £25, but it seems they are starting to target motorists which have been parking in this area for years without hassle from the council.

Council letter or rejection - https://www.dropbox.com/s/r7alm7oa2l6ip7u/scan00921.pdf?dl=0
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:57
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If it was me i would be telling them to go f themselves. So you parked on the pavement. Not an offence of its self in reading, though the police might consider obstruction. They cannot issue a PCN just because they don't like how you parked
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