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Havering No Right Turn
rsg444
post Fri, 19 Jan 2018 - 14:59
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Hi all, my brother received a PCN through the post for an alleged contravention of ignoring a no right turn sign. The no right turn is apparently at Tangent Link for customers coming out of B&Q in Harold Hill. He did not notice any signs but on revisiting he now noticed that there is one there. Are there any grounds to challenge this as a simple mistake on what looks like a private road shouldn't really result in a £65 fine in my opinion.

Front page of PCN through post shown below:

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post Fri, 19 Jan 2018 - 14:59
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rsg444
post Tue, 20 Mar 2018 - 11:40
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Dear London Tribunals,

I hereby submit my appeal in relation to PCN xxxx issued by the London Borough of Havering on the [date] at Tangent Link.

I do not dispute that a right turn was made however it is not unreasonable of me to expect that any local authority that wishes to issue a penalty charge notice does so by following the set out legal processes. In this case, the authority failed to adhere to the legal requirements and as such I request that this PCN is cancelled.

To detail, the authority The London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 at 4(8)(a)(iii) states. "That the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice"

The PCN fails here. It states " 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served. This is in the normal course of post, two working days later. this would create an obvious prejudice, and fail to comply with the regulations.

The PCN fails similarly at 4(8)(a)(iv) using the same date of service rather than date of notice. It further fails in stating the discount is available for 21 days rather than the mandated 14 days.

The PCN fails to comply with the regulations, it is thus not a valid document and no penalty may be demanded on the back of it. Therefore the penalty demanded exceeds the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case, as the only amount that can be due on the strength of this PCN is NIL.

While 21 days is indeed a generous timeframe, it does not comply with legislation which, when penalty charge notices are being issues MUST be adhered to.

I made this point clear to the local authority in my representations. On receiving a notice of rejection, I noted that the authority failed to consider the point I had raised, in fact they simply ignored it and stated that the PCN was issued correctly due to a No Right Turn. (Please see copy of rejection letter attached).

Yours faithfully,

Mr X

This post has been edited by rsg444: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 - 11:42
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Neil B
post Tue, 20 Mar 2018 - 11:57
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On the tech points, I quoted a 2015 case in 'Tommy' thread.
Reference it. Maybe quote the relevant part of decision.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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rsg444
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 09:54
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Hi Neil,

I can't find this Tommy thread - are you able to post a link please?
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rsg444
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 22:25
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Anyone able to assist - i can't find a good example and can't find this Tommy thread
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lashes1984
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 22:29
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http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1368637
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Neil B
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 22:37
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Sorry rsg and thanks lashes.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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rsg444
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 22:58
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Thanks!
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rsg444
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 12:04
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Thanks Neil, also someone mentioned that the rejection had the usual flaws - what are they, is it worth included them too?

Dear London Tribunals,

I hereby submit my appeal in relation to PCN xxxx issued by the London Borough of Havering on the [date] at Tangent Link.

I do not dispute that a right turn was made however it is not unreasonable of me to expect that any local authority that wishes to issue a penalty charge notice does so by following the set out legal processes. In this case, the authority failed to adhere to the legal requirements and as such I request that this PCN is cancelled.

To detail, the authority The London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 at 4(8)(a)(iii) states. "That the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice"

The PCN fails here. It states " 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served. This is in the normal course of post, two working days later. this would create an obvious prejudice, and fail to comply with the regulations.

The PCN fails similarly at 4(8)(a)(iv) using the same date of service rather than date of notice. It further fails in stating the discount is available for 21 days rather than the mandated 14 days.

The PCN fails to comply with the regulations, it is thus not a valid document and no penalty may be demanded on the back of it. Therefore the penalty demanded exceeds the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case, as the only amount that can be due on the strength of this PCN is NIL.

While 21 days is indeed a generous time frame, it does not comply with the London Local Authorities Act 2003 which, when penalty charge notices are being issues MUST be adhered to. Furthermore I offer the following case as an example of precedence:

From Case: 2160047866

"Article 4 (8) (iv) of the Act states that the Penalty Charge Notice should state ‘that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion’

The Penalty Charge Notice sent to Miss Allan stated that ‘a reduced charge of £65 is payable….if the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which this notice was served…’

In its case summary the local authority states that the Penalty Charge Notice does comply with the legislation. I am not satisfied that it does. Although the Penalty Charge Notice offers a more generous timetable than prescribed by the legislation I am not satisfied that the Penalty Charge Notice in this case did comply with the requirements of the London Local Authorities Act 2003."

I made this point clear to the local authority in my representations. On receiving a notice of rejection, I noted that the authority failed to consider the point I had raised, in fact they simply ignored it and stated that the PCN was issued correctly due to a No Right Turn. (Please see copy of rejection letter attached).

Yours faithfully,

Mr X

This post has been edited by rsg444: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 12:07
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rsg444
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 14:37
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Is the above OK then?
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rsg444
post Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 10:08
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This good to go?
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 11:18
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From a superficial skim, it looks ok. The important thing is to not miss the deadline for appeal. You can always make additional submissions later on if need be.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 23:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 11:18) *
From a superficial skim, it looks ok. The important thing is to not miss the deadline for appeal. You can always make additional submissions later on if need be.

And indeed, in looking at yours while compiling what is probably some overlong wittering for Tommy, something has cropped up.
It's something significant, not technical but real life, but I'm holding back for now.

Just tell me, do you have a date for final evidence submission and have you opted for personal hearing?

and - as I can't find it, what was the date of your PCN ?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 11:32


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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shortncurlies
post Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 19:43
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Good luck with this, I hope you succeed.

This post has been edited by shortncurlies: Sun, 1 Apr 2018 - 19:11
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 21:25
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QUOTE (shortncurlies @ Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 20:43) *
Good luck with this, I hope you succeed.

Not wishing to hijack this thread, but I did the same thing so have been watching this closely with interest. However my fault (perhaps) is that in confusion over whether I could appeal and still have a discounted rate if they rejected it, I both appealed and paid at the same time. They have twice sent me a letter saying that ‘taking everything into consideration’ they think they’re right and they’ve closed the matter. They’ve not given me a Notice of Rejection (despite outright asking them for one) so I can’t appeal - the appeal board need a reference that only comes with the NoR.

Presumably I can’t proceed any further?

I could put this in a whole thread of it’s own but it feels right to anyone else looking at Tangent Link issues to have all the answers in one place.

And keep us posted with your appeal. Good luck.


we have a rule, it is one case one thread, so what seems right is not. The advice given often differs. as it is no need because if you have paid then that's it
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psg12345
post Tue, 3 Apr 2018 - 15:23
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 3 Apr 2018 - 14:46) *
QUOTE (psg12345 @ Tue, 3 Apr 2018 - 15:39) *
[attachment=54584:Rejection.jpg]

Hello, I appealed to Havering using the sample wording raised in this thread, as per rsg444 wording above referring to 28 days from issue and 14 days vs 21 days for discount. Their rejection letter above is even more confusing. I had the same PCN as you guys from this thread referring to 21 days. Why they're saying it can be summarised as 14 days is a very strange explanation as there are no mentions of 14 days in the first letter. I also got a lot of PCN that same week as I had to go to B&Q at night a few times and just didn't notice the sign as it wasn't there a year ago when I last went. I asked if they could put all the PCN together so I wont have to do multiple appeals to the London Tribunals but they ignored it.


Start you own thread and post your own documents then we can help


I will do my own thread then but my documents are exactly the same as rsg444, and my answer was exactly the same as rsg444... just thought it's interesting to see the borough's opinion on the matter, which they didn't provide to rsg444...
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rsg444
post Tue, 3 Apr 2018 - 21:01
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 11:18) *
From a superficial skim, it looks ok. The important thing is to not miss the deadline for appeal. You can always make additional submissions later on if need be.

And indeed, in looking at yours while compiling what is probably some overlong wittering for Tommy, something has cropped up.
It's something significant, not technical but real life, but I'm holding back for now.

Just tell me, do you have a date for final evidence submission and have you opted for personal hearing?

and - as I can't find it, what was the date of your PCN ?


Hi Neil,

Apologies for the delay in responding, only just saw this. Date was 05/01/2018.

I have not asked for a personal hearing so I should be able to submit further evidence - only issues is I did select 'No Evidence to follow' so not sure if I can undo it. Apparently, provided I can undo the 'No further evidence to follow" I think I was able to submit evidence up to 2 days before the hearding i.e. 16/04/2018.

R

This post has been edited by rsg444: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 - 21:03
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Neil B
post Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 00:02
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Your appeal was ok


What I discovered is that they have been issuing PCNs saying 14 ?
On 4th and 5th Jan. The latter, was to Tommy12345 on the same day as yours. That's just farcical.

We'll have to work out some wording to relate that to the adjudicator.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 00:05


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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rsg444
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 09:30
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I was reading that for a moving traffic offence the limit is 21 days - is this correct. If so then my appeal at the tribunals will fall flat on its face.
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cp8759
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 10:36
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QUOTE (rsg444 @ Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 10:30) *
I was reading that for a moving traffic offence the limit is 21 days - is this correct. If so then my appeal at the tribunals will fall flat on its face.

For this type of contravention it's section 4(8)(a)(iv) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, "if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion"


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 12:14
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QUOTE (rsg444 @ Tue, 10 Apr 2018 - 09:30) *
I was reading that for a moving traffic offence the limit is 21 days - is this correct. If so then my appeal at the tribunals will fall flat on its face.

See cp8759's reply.

But please tell us where you were reading such nonsense?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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