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Logician
Posted on: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 - 23:39


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QUOTE (Mark Richards @ Wed, 13 Mar 2024 - 22:08) *
I'm afraid not, it was definitely registered to my home address correctly and have checked just now too.
We actually sold it in February also! Not that it matters.


How come you were able to check the V5C if you sold the car in February?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1811528 · Replies: 6 · Views: 185

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 - 19:48


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\they will almost certainly be able to prove that they posted the NIP to you in good time, we are told that there systems prevent late NIPS being sent out.

Have they replied to your nomination of your self as the driver on that occasion?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1811476 · Replies: 6 · Views: 185

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 - 23:49


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In the very early days of motoring it was realised that motorists had the mobility to cover distance very easily, taking them beyond the area in which they were known and recognisable, they could therefore commit offences and speed off before their identity could be established, pursued only by the outraged cries of those they had left behind in their dust, literally in those days! The idea was therefore developed of putting numbers on cars so that offenders could be identified. This caused outrage, compelling motorists to carry numbers put them on the same level as convicts, it was intolerable. Despite these protestsd the measure was cpushed through, vehicles would be made to carry numbers and a record was kept of which motorists owned which car, it is then only a small step to demand that the registered keeper disclose who was driving the car on a particular occasion. It is not entirely necessary, it could be made a statutary assumption that the keeper of the car was driving unless it was disproved, and that would indeed have some advantages, for instances where the driver could not be determined the keeper would simply be assumed to be the driver, saving some agonising. However, that is not the situation we have, and we have to deal with the law as it is.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1811166 · Replies: 44 · Views: 1,795

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 - 14:26


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The court considered that it is more important that the police should be able to use speed cameras than that the privelege against self-incrinimation should be observed.

or

Judges acknowledged that both men had faced compulsion to provide information, but threw out their claim that the right to remain silent and the right not to incriminate oneself are "absolute rights".

Their judgement noted that people "who choose to keep and drive cars" have implicitly "accepted certain responsibilities" under UK law.

This includes an obligation to name the driver of a vehicle after a road traffic offence has been committed.

The judges also pointed out that UK law made it clear that no offence has been committed if a car owner can prove that he or she did not know, and could not be expected to know, who was driving the vehicle.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1811118 · Replies: 44 · Views: 1,795

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 - 21:51


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Friend appears to have told the insurance company that the vehicle was scrapped and got the insurance cancelled, or failed to renew it, but not told the DVLA. The thing is friend was the registered keeper and it was friend's responsibility to inform the DVLA that the car had been scrapped. The acknowledgement slip that the DVLA send out states

ACKNOWLEGEMENT

This confirms that we have updated our records for this vehicle and you are no longer the registered keeper of:

Vehicle registration number AAXX AAA
Make AAAAAAAAAA
Model AAXX

The only date is the date printed.

FURTHER INFORMATION
It says that they may have printed vehicle tax reminders up to 6 weeks befoe the tax runs out
and if you get any penalty notices you should contact the office that sent you the notice (But of course friend has already done that and the offer of a penalty resulted.


So a court might a) accept the paperwork from the ATF as evidence that the vehicle was scrapped in September and she had no duty to insure a vehicle that no longer existed, or b) might take the line that until the DVLA was informed that the vehicle had been scrapped, then insurance should be paid.

I think b) is more likely. and the prosecution costs for found guilty after trial will be quite considerable.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810967 · Replies: 6 · Views: 667

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 - 21:02


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This
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810963 · Replies: 10 · Views: 551

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 - 12:03


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That speed should produce the offer of a course, provided you have not done one for an offence within the previous 3 years
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810917 · Replies: 10 · Views: 551

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 - 12:00


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That is within the range for a fixed penalty, so £100 + 3 points

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810916 · Replies: 3 · Views: 373

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 - 17:08


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QUOTE (dbcc33 @ Thu, 7 Mar 2024 - 17:23) *
How do i go about asking for photos of the driver before replying with driver details? Is it all done by post or i can do online?

Also the photos you all show shows a 20mph sign and then camera immediately after, so we could be slowing from 30 to 20mph - unless there is a 20mph earlier on is this really enough time to slow down??!

What does the speed awareness course entail? Am currently carer for a disabled father - is this something that can be done online or something you have to attend? and under what terms do they decide whether to fine or do the course?


As I said above:
Meanwhile write back asking for any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver, making no mention of proof or evidence which you are not entitled to at this stage. Most forces will send these or direct you to a website. Then you should be able to see where this was and confirm it was your car.
This does not stop the time running on the 28 days you have to respond. Failing to identify the driver is a much more serious offence than speeding, so do not risk that.

Much of London now has 20mph limits so you have to be aware of them.Old Oak Road has them all along.

Online courses started during lockdown, whether that has continued in the Met area I don't know. They offer a course provided you have not done for an offence within the previous 3 years to the current offence and for speeds up to limit concerned.The Met follows the National Police Chief Council (NPCC) guidelines and the speed thresholds are up to 31 mph in a 20 mph limit, up to 42 mph in a 30 mph limit, up to 53 mph in a 40 mph and up to 63 mph in a 50 mph.



QUOTE (dbcc33 @ Thu, 7 Mar 2024 - 17:55) *
thanks all
will request more photos and if hear nothing back then just fill in my details
what i meant is is it legal to have a camera IMMEDIATELY after the sign, not a little while away allowing time to slow down? seems its not a legal requirement and u are expected to slow down in 1 second....


Yes, there are no legal restrictions on the placing of cameras, anyway that sign is only a repeater, it is a 20mph limit all along Old Oak Road, and the road is so marked.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810732 · Replies: 24 · Views: 707

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 - 16:08


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QUOTE (dopeteb @ Thu, 7 Mar 2024 - 15:57) *
In the event the evidence is just what the officer saw or observed, how likely is a conviction? At this point, is it not his word against mine?


Well yes, but you are not equally credible, the officer presumably does not know you and has no reason to fabricate evidence since there are enough people doing daft things on the road without adding you, on the other hand you have every reason not to admit to committing an offence, so the odds are strongly in favour of the court prefering the officer's evidence.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810722 · Replies: 44 · Views: 1,795

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 - 15:57


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The NIP tells you where it was, Old Oak Road, near Hemlock Road, going Northbound.

So it looks as though it was THIS camera, on the corner of Hemlock Road. THE CAMERA has a reminder speed limit sign on it and there are markings on the road.
If you give us further details by completing the NIP Wizard, accessible from the grey bar, RH side, at the top of the page, filling in all the details including the additional questions, there may be some thing else we can do. Meanwhile write back asking for any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver, making no mention of proof or evidence which you are not entitled to at this stage. Most forces will send these or direct you to a website. Then you should be able to see where this was and confirm it was your car.
This does not stop the time running on the 28 days you have to respond. Failing to identify the driver is a much more serious offence than speeding, so do not risk that.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810720 · Replies: 24 · Views: 707

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 - 11:42


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You don't say, was the speeding near Sheffield or near your home? Did you leave the car at home and were the keys available for other people to drive and was it insured for others? Have you questioned possible drivers?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810655 · Replies: 5 · Views: 253

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 - 10:57


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As above, just consider if you had been using it on the road the situation would look exactly as it was when the DVLA van came round. I suspect that had it simply been that the tax had expired it would have been a warning, but the fact that it was SORNed and on the road resulted in them immediately going to a penalty. If it goes to court you will be found guilty because you did commit the offence, the vehicle was SORNed but was on the road, it's that simple. You would have to pay road tax from the time the last road road tax expired, plus a fine, plus victim surcharge plus costs.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810647 · Replies: 2 · Views: 310

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 - 12:56


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QUOTE (Slapdash @ Wed, 6 Mar 2024 - 12:10) *
Some jurisdictions can make the vehicle owner liable. Keep an eye on the credit card.


But perhaps you were in a hire car? Possibly then they will get the hire company to pay any penalty, then they may try to pass it on to you by charging your credit card.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810524 · Replies: 3 · Views: 336

Logician
Posted on: Sun, 3 Mar 2024 - 16:59


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QUOTE (Nosy Parker @ Sun, 3 Mar 2024 - 06:49) *
I’m not cut out for a life of crime.


They do say that crime doesn't pay.............................................................................
...............................enough

And with what has happened to criminal legal aid rates that must be true.


I have never seen anyone quite so uncomfortable in court as a family solicitor asked to appear for his elderly lady client in a drink drive case, she having been pulled over by the police for driving excessivle slowly. The solicitor rose to his feet and explained that he had been asked to represent his client, he was not there to mitigate for her, still less to defend her, but simply at her request to explain what had happened. She was of an age when her memory was not what it was, and when she was at this function she forgot what she had drunk already, so accepted more drinks on a number of occasions, and that was how she came most unfortunately to be well over the limit.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810187 · Replies: 22 · Views: 1,884

Logician
Posted on: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 - 22:34


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QUOTE (DerekMRB @ Fri, 1 Mar 2024 - 18:50) *
Thank you, I will do that for sure. It is part of our arrangement which includes me still paying towards the house etc too.

Is it best to post the plea or do it online?


The court will want to see you in person and possibly question you. It will be helpful to have it written out to make sure that you include everything you want to say. You will need copies for the three magistrates, the legal advisor and the prosecutor.

Look at the guidance to the court posted above, and consider how to respond, for instance the lines "If a motorist continues to offend after becoming aware of the risk to their licence of further penalty points, the court can take this circumstance into account." raise the question "You knew you were on 9 points, if keeping your licence is so important to you in order to keep in touch with your daughter, why were you risking it by speeding?" This is a favourite with courts.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1810069 · Replies: 19 · Views: 1,393

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 - 22:53


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QUOTE (Sloweddown2 @ Tue, 27 Feb 2024 - 21:33) *
Thanks to be honest a short ban may be better than living with 6 points for 3 years.


Yes, but it might have an impact on insurance, some companies ask if you have ever been disqualified.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1809844 · Replies: 23 · Views: 1,443

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 - 14:44


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". and what is the likely penalty for 92mph in a 70mph ?"

As you have previously been told, a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1809111 · Replies: 17 · Views: 848

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 - 14:41


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"Pictures say they are taken from unedited footage from informant."
That suggests that it was from a member of the public which could be a dashcam, GoPro or a pedestrian using a camera phone.
If you were stopped at the lights you would have some difficulty convincing the court you were not driving, with 6 pointsd now for the offence you cannot afford to take any chances, panicked or not.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1809110 · Replies: 5 · Views: 575

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 - 14:23


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QUOTE (Terry123412 @ Thu, 22 Feb 2024 - 09:59) *
I do now have my provisional licence back from dvla, when i look at the back the entitlement for a car is from 1996 -2048 ? but the date on the front is now 16/2/2024 - 15/2/2034


1996 is when you got the licence, 2048 is when you are 70 and need to renew your licence,

2024 is when the photograph was attached, 2034 is when the photo needs to be renewed
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1809106 · Replies: 57 · Views: 3,761

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 - 15:12


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The police do not routinely check the insurance position, and you have no obligation to tell them, just complete the form and do not add anything else.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1808143 · Replies: 57 · Views: 3,761

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 - 15:03


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"If the police are sending a reminder after all the statutory time limits have expired and everyone is saying it doesn't matter that they sent the reminder late, then it means they are trying to get the RK or driver to admit the offence even though the case is no longer valid."

You have been repeatedly told that the police have no obligation to send a reminder, it therefore follows that they cannot be late in sending a reminder.

They have chosen to send a reminder in this case and have said that they will allow seven days to respond to it outside of the 28 day period, which you are somehow contriving to twist into some sort of admission that the first NIP was issued late, that is simply not going to work.

The case has not become invalid, what the police are trying to do is to get evidence to prosecute the driver for speeding, but if that fails they can fall back on a s.172 prosecution, which in this instance is a more serious offence.

Entrapment does not mean getting someone to confess, it means persuading someone to commit an offence which they would not otherwise have committed, and unlike in America, is not a defence under English law.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1808135 · Replies: 68 · Views: 2,974

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 - 17:10


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You say "The reminder letter also states that there are 7 days to reply, which indicates that the 28 days for RK''s response are not over."

No it doesn't, it indicates that they have sent a reminder and are now giving 7 days to reply to it. You are building a construction on very shaky foundations, and I fear it is all going to come crashing down around your ears when you get to court, but the best of luck to you if you want to have your day in court, please let us know how you get on.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1808040 · Replies: 68 · Views: 2,974

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 - 12:48


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QUOTE (Lexykay @ Tue, 13 Feb 2024 - 12:48) *
Surely they should be prosecuting my Mrs for not providing driver details within 28 days instead of sending a reminder letter if they served an original NIP within the statutory 14 days.


They prefer to charge for the underlying speeding offence rather than the s.172
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1807978 · Replies: 68 · Views: 2,974

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 - 12:46


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The alleged offence is for 53 in a 40 limit, which is at the top of the range for the offer of a course, which you should receive if you are otherwise eligible (Not having done a course for an offence within 3 years prior to this offence)

We are told that the systems now in place prevent the first NIP being sent out at a date that makes it imposssible to be received within 14 days from the offence date. As Slapdash says it is likely that the date on the copy NIP being the same as on the reminder is because it is automatically updated when it was re-printed so it is not proof that the first NIP was sent out late. The Police will be able to prove that a NIP was in fact sent out when they say, that might well have been lost in the post but it is not possible for you to prove it was not received. Unless you are already on 9 points when it makes sense to try any long shot, your best bet is not to try a late NIP defence which can only be done in court, but to fess up and hope for a course, or at the worst a fixed penalty.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1807976 · Replies: 68 · Views: 2,974

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