Wandsworth pcn 16 Options

[torenaga]

Hi there everyone.

My mother got a ticket the other day when she parked in a disabled bay. This was by accident as she has a residents permit to park on this street and did not realise this was a disabled bay, as the marking and lines are so badly damaged. If she had known she would of parked anywhere on the street as her permit covers this street.
The disabled sign on the floor is badly worn and damaged that it can't even be read.
There is a pole with the sign saying 'disabled badge only' but she did not see it as she has parked plenty of times on this road and knew her permit would cover this road.

What do you guys think would be her best way of approach with this fine, should she appeal to Wandsworth just saying it was a genuine mistake or should she appeal on the basis of the badly damaged road marking?

Thank you

fine 2 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 1 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

20190320_185132 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

20190320_185134 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine front_ edited20190321_0001 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine back_20190321_0001 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

Just realized i have put this in the wrong forum.
Moderator can this please be moved to the council forum please.

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[torenaga]

Ok, I will do that now.
What shall I say why i require it for?

This post has been edited by torenaga: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 11:00

[cp8759]

Ok, I will do that now.
What shall I say why i require it for?

Under the Freedom of Information Act you are not required to give a reason, and they won't ask you either.

[torenaga]

Hi CP.
I've still received the TMO from wandsworth yet.
What do you think I should do now.

Regards

[cp8759]

Where did you send the request, and did you get any sort of reply?

[torenaga]

Thanks for your reply CP.
I sent the request to the foi email address and they replied with this email. This was back on the 5th of August. No TMO yet.

This post has been edited by torenaga: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 18:18

[cp8759]

You say this email, what does the email say? You've not attached anything.

[torenaga]

Sorry cp. Just trying to attach the screenshot.
This is what was written by them

Request for Information - 2019/1540 - Gibley Road



Thank you for your request for information received on 05/08/2019.



This will be processed in accordance with the appropriate access to information regime.





Regards,



FOI and DPA Officer

I haven't recieved anything since.

[cp8759]

Make a request for an internal review, see https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/official-information/ (bottom of the page).

You must however make a representation by tomorrow, as it's the last day. This must be done regardless of the FOI. All you can do at this point is make a representation based on what you know, and on the assumption that the public notice reflects the wording of the actual TMO. By the time you get the rejection letter, the FOI response should have come back.

[torenaga]

Ok, thank you very much CP.
Could you advise on how I should word the appeal please?
Will it have to be done by midnight tonight then?

Thank you so much

[cp8759]

No, midnight tomorrow. Bump in the morning and I'll take a look.

[torenaga]

Thank you so much CP.

I will do that

[Mad Mick V]

Perhaps there is a way round the missing TMO.

https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/media/2115/di...cation_form.pdf

Still confusion "This bay may be used by any Blue Badge holder" versus "The parking bay that you have applied for is an ‘informatory’ disabled parking bay, which means that the bay is advisory and therefore unenforceable".

However if the bay is for any BB holder how does a Code 16 apply?

Wednesbury Unreasonableness by the Council IMO.

Plus---"My mother got a ticket the other day when she parked in a disabled bay. This was by accident as she has a residents permit to park on this street."


Therefore, if a residents permit was displayed, there is no case to answer since the Council admits the bay is unenforceable for any BB purpose (I presume even if they give that resident their version of a disabled permit).



Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 09:45

[cp8759]

Looking over this it's not that clear-cut. Taking the Gazette notice at face value

The general effect of the first Order will be to designate parking places for the leaving for any period without charge of a disabled person’s vehicle displaying a disabled resident permit and a related disabled person’s badge (commonly referred to as the “blue badge”) for any period adjacent to the following locations

This implies that a non-advisory disabled permit specific to these bays is issued. Subject to the views of others, the only arguments I can really see are:

1) The misleading road marking
2) The long and unjustified delay in dealing with the informal representation, as per Elizabeth Kehinde v Royal Borough of Greenwich

[Mad Mick V]

@CP
There are a number of Orders in that Notice and you have referred to the bit relating to the 1st Order mentioned. Gilbey Road is covered by the 2nd Order mentioned:-

• 3 The general effect of the second Order will be to designate parking places for the leaving of disabled persons’ vehicles displaying a disabled person’s badge (commonly referred to as the “blue badge”) for any period without charge adjacent to the following location: -
  • a No. 37 Gilbey Road

The difference is important because I cannot see that "our" bay is covered by the need for disabled "permit".

Mick

[cp8759]

@CP
There are a number of Orders in that Notice and you have referred to the bit relating to the 1st Order mentioned. Gilbey Road is covered by the 2nd Order mentioned:-

• 3 The general effect of the second Order will be to designate parking places for the leaving of disabled persons’ vehicles displaying a disabled person’s badge (commonly referred to as the “blue badge”) for any period without charge adjacent to the following location: -
  • a No. 37 Gilbey Road

The difference is important because I cannot see that "our" bay is covered by the need for disabled "permit".

Mick

Fair point, in that case the representation to be made seems straightforward: It's a disabled bay and a blue badge was on display, end of.

[torenaga]

Sorry guys, I think there may be a bit of confusion now. She has a residents parking permit for that zone. Not a blue badge, sorry if I have confused anyone .
Really appreciate all the help.

[cp8759]

Sorry guys, I think there may be a bit of confusion now. She has a residents parking permit for that zone. Not a blue badge, sorry if I have confused anyone .
Really appreciate all the help.

In that case the representation should be made on the basis that the wrong contravention code was used: It should have been 40 - Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without displaying a valid disabled person’s badge in the prescribed manner, and the signs don't match the TRO (it should be a simple disabled bay rather than a disabled permit holder bay).

[Mad Mick V]

Right--back to basics.

1. The contravention is a Code 16 "Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required".

2. Mum has a permit for that Zone.

3. I expect that she displayed her permit.

4. So why has she got a contravention?

5. Because the bay she parked in is a disabled bay and the Council believe a different type of permit, a disabled permit, is required.

6. However the Council class these bays as "advisory" and the Notice relating to the Gilbey Road bay does not require a disabled permit.

7. Perhaps the TMO might state otherwise.

8. So what sort of appeal has Mum got?

9. The Notice says the TMO will designate parking places for the leaving of disabled persons’ vehicles displaying a disabled person’s badge (commonly referred to as the “blue badge”) for any period without charge adjacent to the following location: -
a) No. 37 Gilbey Road

10. We also know that the Notice indicates any BB holder can use that bay.

11. Ergo the contravention appropriate to Mum is (Code 40) she parked without showing a blue badge.

12. The wrong contravention has been given.

Mick

[torenaga]

Wow, thank you for all the info guys. The lengths you have gone to help out I really appreciate it.
So I'm just going to appeal on the basis of the wrong contravention code. Will just a simple

"I'm appealing on the basis that the wrong contravention code was used: It should have been 40 - Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without displaying a valid disabled person’s badge in the prescribed manner, and the signs don't match the TRO (it should be a simple disabled bay rather than a disabled permit holder bay). Will this be enough or will I have to go into more detail?

To CP, mums permit is always on display as it's stuck on the windscreen.

Regards

[cp8759]

Given the timeframe I'd send something fairly simple, the council will no doubt reject but by the time we get the rejection letter, we'll have the TMO and we'll be able to work out what's what.