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PCN Loading Bay - Grounds for Appeal
Morphic
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 17:14
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Hi

I managed to park my car in what I thought was a 45 min waiting bay on New Years eve however upon returning to my car I noticed a nice yellow PCN on my windscreen. It was then I realised the space I had parked was in fact a very poorly marked out loading bay. There is one small sign for this bay on an adjacent building and there is the writing "LOADING ONLY" on the outer (roadside) edge of the bay however this is worn as heck and I didn't notice this when entering the space in the dark. To add to my annoyance it seems there is always someone parked here without loading and I've walked and driven past this space hundreds of times without even noticing it.

I appealed on the grounds it's insufficiently marked out however it was rejected. I've now received a NTO and I want to appeal again as I feel a bit hard done by. I've measured the space and it's under 1.8m which I believe is under the regulatory width and also the lines are under 50mm which is also under the guidelines from what I've read. I'm wondering if anyone can confirm I have grounds to appeal and if so how I should word it please?





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post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 17:14
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Morphic
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:12
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 23:31) *
QUOTE (Morphic @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 18:28) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 15:34) *
Are those all the council's pics? No photo of the "loading only" sign?

Yes those are all of them. Do they have to take a photo of the loading only sign?

They don't have to, but we've often seen cases where the tribunal allows the appeal because the photos don't show the sign, or the photo of the sign is out of focus or unreadable. The risk is that if you point this out at any stage, it'll alert them to the need to include a picture of the sign, so you'd be relying on saying very little about your challenge before it got to the tribunal stage, and then submitting that on the council's evidence, no contravention is made out.

QUOTE (Morphic @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 18:28) *
Thanks. Is the full penalty the £105 mentioned or the £70? When you say best chance, what are the success rates of adjudications with these sort of things?

The full penalty is £70, providing you don't miss the deadlines £70 is the maximum you will pay. On substantial compliance, you have no chance. If the council don't include a photo of the sign in the evidence pack for the adjudicator, I'd expect you to win in almost all instances. It's a high risk strategy though.


Thanks for the reply. I'm getting conflicting advice now, do I mention the sign or don't I! 😁 And do the council not read these forums so in all likelihood they will include photos of the sign?? I know I would if I did that job (heaven forbid). And what is the risk involved? I have to pay £70 if I don't appeal so I guess it's worth a shot.
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Morphic
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:26
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 08:08) *
You have a NTO, presumably addressed to you, pl confirm.

You must make reps or pay.

I suggest that as you're local you revisit the site and if in darkness the lines and writing are as clear as in the photos - and they are clear in the photos- then just repeat your reps as before except add that since receiving their reply dated *** you have now seen the loading traffic sign to which they referred which you found attached to the wall of a property at the back of the footway at a height of ** feet(always use feet, it sounds more than metres). You now understand why you missed this when you first parked as it is placed in an unusual and obscure location unlike the traffic sign which you did see situated prominently and clearly displayed on a lamp column some *** metres beyond(this time you don't want it to seem too far away smile.gif). Use the GSV shot whch shows both signs in view and is good contrast and compare evidence.

IMO, put your tape measure and errneous TSRGD references away, you would fail and even worse come across as a smart a**e when what you want to convey is the picture of an honest motorist misled by the council's failure to place clear traffic signs.

Thanks for the advice. Obviously I won't be using my tape measure if my TSRGD references are erroneous! Can you explain for my own smart arsery why they are please? Can I use the tape measure to measure the height of the sign please? 😆 I appreciate it appears slightly petty to start measuring things but when one has been punished unfairly for what I consider to be failings on the part of the council to make it as clear as reasonably possible that this is a loading bay, I'll resort to whatever means necessary (within the law 😁). If I had parked here noticing the markings or sign I would've held my hands up and paid the £35 but it was an honest mistake which I think a lot of people would make considering the facts.
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Longtime Lurker
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:51
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Use your tape measure for whatever you want, but the case will be judged by an adjudicator who will not be using one. The adjudicator will consider if the signs and markings are 'substantially' compliant with the regulations or not. They will not be looking for laser guided accuracy, just 'good enough not to confuse people too much'. From our experience, there's at least 99.9% chance you'll lose if you try a 'this bit is 8cm too small' approach.

This post has been edited by Longtime Lurker: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:53
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hcandersen
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 17:32
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Wot Longtime Lurker wrote!
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Morphic
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 18:41
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QUOTE (Longtime Lurker @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:51) *
Use your tape measure for whatever you want, but the case will be judged by an adjudicator who will not be using one. The adjudicator will consider if the signs and markings are 'substantially' compliant with the regulations or not. They will not be looking for laser guided accuracy, just 'good enough not to confuse people too much'. From our experience, there's at least 99.9% chance you'll lose if you try a 'this bit is 8cm too small' approach.

Yea I got the jist that accuracy of the implementation of the guidelines isn't the way to go. I will get some photos of the signs and explain how I missed it and took the other more promenant sign a few meters away to be what the restrictions were. Thanks all for you advice so far, it's appreciated.
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Morphic
post Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 10:44
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So here's a photo with both signs. Still a recommended approach to appeal?
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 11:08
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That shot highlights the prominence of the sign on the post as against the sign on the wall
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