NIP, non-UK driver nominated. Now going to court, Threads merged |
NIP, non-UK driver nominated. Now going to court, Threads merged |
Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:13
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 14 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,394 |
Hi all,
I'm new here and did a lot of reading prior to posting but couldn't find a similar issue raised. NIP travelling 71mph in 60mph variable speed limit zone on M1 northbound. The driver was my Canadian relative visiting the UK. I gave Police his details and a copy of his (Canadian) insurance policy too. I let him use my car on the condition his insurance covers him, which Police are saying it doesn't and now they want to take me to court for permitting use of my vehicle without insurance. Before he drove my car, he explicitly told me his insurance covers him and that he brought his insurance papers with him. I'm mortified and furious at him (and myself) for trusting him. He's currently having words with his Canadian insurance company but I'm not holding my breath and have lost faith in him. This is bad of me to say but a part of me wishes I fibbed and told Police I was the driver and be done with it (I have a clean license, never been on any courses etc); the irony of it all! Anyway, I'm in this mess so have to deal with it. Questions for you lovely people: 1) Does anybody know what sort of result can I expect and do I have to physically attend Court? 2) I'm awaiting confirmation from various Freedom of Information requests, but I strongly believe the grace period between first setting the 60mph variable speed limit signs above the gantries and camera enforcement of the 60mph limit was less than 45 seconds. If this is the case, would it: a) Invalidate the initial NIP b) Also invalidate the current permitting to drive offence Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, cheapshots |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:13
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:19
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
1/ You have to attend if you want to defend, not if you plead guilty
2/ Irrelevant really, you aren't being prosecuted for speeding. As it happens they very between 10 and 60 seconds. a/ Nope, wouldn't help if it did anyway , the insurance offence occurred or it did not. b/ Nope, not at all, the reason they investigated the offence doesn't provide a defence if it was committed. Two choices really 1/ Plead guilty - 6 points, large fine and expect a BIG hike in premiums for a few years 2/ Defend on the basis that your permission to drive was conditional on him having insurance, as he didn't have it there was no permission, really that's going to be an uphill battle unless he drags his sorry arse here to be a witness to the effect he took your car without consent (and risks prosecution for that and the driving without insurance offence as well). Time to learn a 'life lesson' I'm afraid is my take on it. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:21
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,547 Joined: 17 May 2010 Member No.: 37,614 |
First - the police "want to take me to court" ? Exactly what stage int he process are you - have you actually received a summons ?
1) 6 points + fine 2) Irrelevant to the offence you are charged with. a) No b) No It is your responsibility to check any driver of your vehicle has the necessary insurance cover in place - did you read his policy before allowing him to drive, and if so what did it say that gave you the impression he was covered, or was this purely on his say so ? |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:40
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 14 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,394 |
Thanks for your replies - I appreciate it.
Oh dear, I'm quite shaken up by this all. I was in email communication with the Police and the officer said 'the offence of permit is now complete' and I'll soon receive the Court papers in the post. I think I will have to be strong, attend Court and plead not guilty. I did not read through his insurance policy. I let him use the car on the condition he had insurance and I can probably get that confirmation from him in writing; it's the least he can do for me. He confirmed he has insurance, he told me he brought his insurance papers so I agreed. Slightly off-topic, but a 10-second grace period for enforcing a variable speed limit on a motorway seems very harsh. The Police force in question confirmed they give a 60 second grace period but in my case, it was much less. Anyway, I guess it doesn't matter anyway as they're coming after me for permitting somebody to drive without insurance. |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:45
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Permitting use without insurance is an absolute offence - Tapsell v Maslen. However, you don’t “permit” the use if you make it an express condition that the driver was insured - Newbury v Davis. That decision was later held to apply only in extreme circumstances - DPP v Fisher. It is crucial that you are clear as to whether you made it an express condition or whether you simply checked his insurance certificate and wrongly (if honestly) concluded he was insured. If the latter, you are still guilty of the offence - Baugh v Crago.
So, what exactly went on between the two of you? -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:52
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
I think I will have to be strong, attend Court and plead not guilty. Please be ware that if you plead guilty costs will be £85, plead not guilty and lose is going to be circa £620, plus you will not get the 1.3 discount off the fine (and effectively the surcharge) so it will cost you in the region of £800-900 more than pleading guilty. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:55
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,572 Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,528 |
For future reference, for insurance to be valid for driving a UK registered car in the UK, the insurer must be a member of the ABI (Association of British Insurers). It is very unlikely indeed that any overseas insurer would be, so overseas insurance is very unlikely to be valid for British purposes, whatever the policy says. It is therefore very possible your relative entirely believed that he was covered to drive your car, when in fact he was not. Other countries seem to have a much more relaxed approach to insurance than we do, we are very uptight about it, for whatever reason. Different countries, different systems.
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:57
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 14 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,394 |
Thanks for explaining guys.
He was coming to visit from Canada and instead of renting a car, I agreed to let him drive mine provided he had relevant insurance etc. He told me he had insurance organised and that he would bring his insurance papers with him. I trusted him and agreed. I didn't check his insurance papers (silly of me), this is an old friend who I have known for many years. We are trying to figure out where this went wrong (from his side) in terms of why insurance wasn't in place. As an interim measure I think he will be happy to write me a letter stating that I allowed him to drive on the condition he had insurance in place. What a mess This post has been edited by cheapshots: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:09 |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:20
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
You may find that if he provides such a letter and you in turn provide it to the police they may decide not to proceed with the prosecution. However, they may decide that it’s up to a court to make the decision. Your issue will be introducing your friend’s evidence - he will need to create a witness statement exhibiting letter and setting out that you made it a condition that he was insured. The prosecution may wish to cross-examine him as to his evidence and object to his witness statement. Ordinarily, this would mean he has to turn up in person to give evidence - quite how you will get round that (assuming he won’t come back) I don’t know off the top of my head.
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:28
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
The letter may be no help, the prosecution may object and he'd have to appear as a witness.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:36
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 14 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,394 |
I guess the letter won't do any harm though.
I have to contact him first, the time difference between here and Ontario is quite the pain! If he agree's, do you think it's a good idea to send it to the Police Force before I've received my Court papers? |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:44
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
If he agree's, do you think it's a good idea to send it to the Police Force before I've received my Court papers? Yes. His statement and letter may be admissible under s 116(2)(c) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (hearsay - witness outside UK and not reasonably practicable to secure his attendance). -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:51
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 521 Joined: 15 Oct 2011 From: England Member No.: 50,387 |
The Police force in question confirmed they give a 60 second grace period but in my case, it was much less. You mean in my Canadian friend's case, surely? Be careful how statements like that come across. Police do monitor this site, and you don't want to get yourself in even hotter water! This post has been edited by NeverMind: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:51 |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:56
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 14 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,394 |
Thanks NeverMind.
To clarify, my Canadian friend was driving yes. I said 'in my case' as in the current situation where the Police want to prosecute me for allegedly permitting to drive without insurance. It's almost 7am in Canada so I will call soon and see if he will agree to write a letter and email it over ASAP. This post has been edited by cheapshots: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:00 |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:35
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 683 Joined: 19 Jul 2017 Member No.: 93,086 |
I guess the letter won't do any harm though. I have to contact him first, the time difference between here and Ontario is quite the pain! If he agree's, do you think it's a good idea to send it to the Police Force before I've received my Court papers? "If he agrees...." WTF? Why the hell wouldn't he agree? At the best he screwed up getting overseas insurance. (His responsibility) In which case he should be totally embarrassed and falling over himself to help you out. At the worst - he winged it, hoping to drive without insurance at all. (A crime) Additionally - he mislead you into inadvertently committing a crime yourself too! Do you have any evidence of your conditional offer of the car? e.g. Did you discuss this is an email chain? If he bullshitted you... Well that's one Christmas card you won't need to send any more... And I would expect him to offer to pay any fines you get, and contribute to any additional insurances costs you meet for the next few years. |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:37
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
If he is scanning the letter in order to be used as evidence he will also need to make a statement that his signature, written and scanned, is accepted by him as a valid method of signing - Electronic Communications Act 2000.
Whether the CPS would object on that basis is doubtful but might as well cover all bases. |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 12:14
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 14 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,394 |
Yes, he's writing me a letter now which he'll email, he was happy to help.
I guess when it comes to these things people are worried / anxious / scared (like me!), that's why I said 'if he agrees to write a letter' There was a verbal agreement between us RE the car and insurance, but now he's agreed to write me a letter to back this up. I asked him to include a statement RE the Electronic Communications Act 2000. I hope to email it to the Police before they issue the court papers. I think the case is currently with their case preparation unit so time is ticking away. Will keep you posted. |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 14:05
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Member No.: 6,174 |
You may find that if he provides such a letter and you in turn provide it to the police they may decide not to proceed with the prosecution. However, they may decide that it’s up to a court to make the decision. Your issue will be introducing your friend’s evidence - he will need to create a witness statement exhibiting letter and setting out that you made it a condition that he was insured. The prosecution may wish to cross-examine him as to his evidence and object to his witness statement. Ordinarily, this would mean he has to turn up in person to give evidence - quite how you will get round that (assuming he won’t come back) I don’t know off the top of my head. Courts seem to accept people on remand appearing on video, would facetime or Skype not be an acceptable means of communicating? |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 14:06
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
You may find that if he provides such a letter and you in turn provide it to the police they may decide not to proceed with the prosecution. However, they may decide that it’s up to a court to make the decision. Your issue will be introducing your friend’s evidence - he will need to create a witness statement exhibiting letter and setting out that you made it a condition that he was insured. The prosecution may wish to cross-examine him as to his evidence and object to his witness statement. Ordinarily, this would mean he has to turn up in person to give evidence - quite how you will get round that (assuming he won’t come back) I don’t know off the top of my head. Courts seem to accept people on remand appearing on video, would facetime or Skype not be an acceptable means of communicating? To be honest, I only know the rules on that for my own jurisdiction, which are likely to mirror England and Wales, but I’ve not checked. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 17:56
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,140 Joined: 19 Jun 2004 From: Surrey Member No.: 1,326 |
Too late for the OP now, but is it permissible to put someone with an overseas licence on your own insurance for a week?
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