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DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 09:51


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You have a winner.
While parking without paying may be questionable despite the issues and efforts that you made and have evidence of, there is a clear and blatant failure to consider within the NOR.
To me the outline of appeal is two fold.
Contravention did not Occur
This due to failure of the online system which despite my best efforts would not allow payment.
Evidence and details to follow.
Procedural Impropriety.
Authorities have a duty to consider all aspects of challenges made against a PCN or NTO and to act fairly.
Their rejection is strongly based on that payment should have been made by cash at a nearby Pay and Display machine.
This despite that the signage does not allow and the only visible machine is not longer in use with clear notices to that effect.
The rejection clearly shows that false logic has been applied by basing the rejection on a non existent facility, this fails to consider or to act fairly.
Photos and full details to follow.

Get something like that in so you do not miss deadlines.
I suspect that little more will be needed as when someone from council with a brain checks on the second part, they will cancel.
Don't rely on that, when appeal is registered you will have a new deadline for the hearing, full appeal, photos etc should be in good time for that.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435860 · Replies: 27 · Views: 534

DancingDad
Posted on: Today, 09:35


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Observation period is irrelevant
What may be is what sort of dropped kerb and how you were parked relative to it.
Let's have some photos please.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435855 · Replies: 41 · Views: 283

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 17:06


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QUOTE (Red Star @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 15:11) *
I came across this great article: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/article...s-520-fine.html.
What a great read.
I've only scan read so far. But one takeaway is that you have to read the signs to know if allowed to enter at certain times or NOT allowed at all.
(I maybe wrong... I only scan read... will read in full a little later.)

I think I'm going to play the game and take it further and appeal all the way.

Drive in, read sign, drive out is fine.
Drive in, let someone out, isn't.


Believe me, if I could see a way of arguing I would put it forward but at the moment, the only thing I have is the c0ck up in the Highway Code.


That article you refer to relates to Bus Lane, not Bus Stop, there is a difference, least of which is boarding alighting is allowed in a bus lane.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435675 · Replies: 19 · Views: 226

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 14:20


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That is the bit to focus on.
The council say you should have used a machine.

If machine isn't there, they have no case and should be an easy win.
If machine is nearby, we need to show why it was not apparent to use machine... signs, other side of road or the like.
Get the evidence and we can sort out what is needed.
Don't delay, clock is ticking and do register appeal.
Can say evidence to follow, can put in an outline, could not pay by phone, no machines available (or signage did not allow payment by machine) but include more to follow.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435599 · Replies: 27 · Views: 534

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 11:53


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QUOTE (Thazz @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 19:31) *
DancingDad, would you believe it, I went to take photos of the kerb today and, dammit, someone had parked in exactly the same place as I did the other day, preventing me from taking meaningful photos with measurements. I will go back tomorrow morning.

However, I did notice that on the opposite corner there is a dropped kerb and a post similar to the one in the photos I've sent in, and furthermore, by looking underneath the vehicle parked there today I can see that there appears to be a semblance of a dropped kerb there, although the drop is extremely slight, much less than on the opposing corner, and arguably not at all obvious. Nevertheless, it is clear that this is the dropped kerb which the PCN refers to.

I'll post again tomorrow (Tuesday).
Cheers


Photos.
It seems that your argument is that the DK is not clearly defined and as such easily missed by even a diligent motorist.
You need evidence to back this up.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435557 · Replies: 41 · Views: 283

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 11:47


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Noted and will try harder in future smile.gif
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435553 · Replies: 24 · Views: 424

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 11:21


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Thought it might be the 21 days....
I use that as a worst case.... the 19 days plus a couple to process.
Accept it may vary but is generally the "worst case"

On the bailiffs knowing before the OP.
I like the proactive but the fact is that once TEC make a decision, council get it electronically, applicant via post.
Means that bailiffs can know a couple of days ahead.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435541 · Replies: 24 · Views: 424

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 11:16


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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 00:45) *
QUOTE (Red Star @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 23:53) *
But here's my gripe... the fact that it's NOT a blanket rule.

Again just for the future, unfortunately, I think it IS in London. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Might not be where DD is; he's foreign y'know.


You are wrong.
London may have many or the majority of bus stops configured as No Stopping clearways but it is up to the local authorities whether or not they are.
The rule that applies across the UK is Broad Yellow line, DO NOT stop in one.
This is one where no good referring to Highway Code.... they c0cked up the last edition and did not show bus stops as places not to stop.

Thinking more on that, that is a possible point to challenge (dunno if I would risk discount on it but)….
Motorists are expected to know what signs mean.
The Highway Code is published as the guide to that and motorists are expected to have read and to abide by it.
If the guide does not explain, there is mitigation if not a solid excuse.
I wonder what council would say?
Anyone want to comment ?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435535 · Replies: 19 · Views: 226

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 00:30


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QUOTE (JustPassingBy @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 17:17) *
......That's what I like to hear! Going for 99% safe then. Not sure how there could possibly be a way it caught me. But you never know! I'm confident in thinking i'm safe, would you agree?


Probably safe from the camera.
Not so sure about safe when going through lights at well over the speed limit wink.gif
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1435482 · Replies: 15 · Views: 348

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 00:24


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You are running it tight to deadline to register an appeal with adjudicators, no point in paying up at full rate, adjudication will cost no more if you lose.
Not 100% on a win here but far better then evens IMO.

Could you confirm, were there any machines for cash payment ?
You say you park there regularly, check, take photos of signs and where machines were if any are on older streetview scenes but are now missing.
To me, the "you could have used cash" depends on machines being there, are they?
The sign the council put on the NOR suggest that phone is the only way of paying and nothing suggests that the machine option is anything but fiction.
That is a winner if you can show that. Adjudicator is likely to take the statement on face value, you need evidence to show that cash payment was not an option, not signed, not obviously available.

Even if cash payment is possible, PBP is so endemic nowadays that the old reasoning of if machine not working parking is free (not strictly true) can, IMO, be extended.
Certainly people will likely have an expectation to be able to pay and the means of doing so (phone), if that fails due to a system error, why should the motorist be penalised.
And it does come back to the restriction sign saying Pay by Phone... no other option.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435480 · Replies: 27 · Views: 534

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 00:08


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There will be a video, which will be the primary evidence if this gets to adjudication.
You can request it.
Does not rely on any stills taken from the video.

On the stopping to read the sign.
This is a valid defence... I was not sure if the restriction was timed so I pulled in, saw it wasn't and left.... perfect, will win.
Where it falls down is when it is... I pulled in, read the sign, stopped anyway and let my mate out, then left.

That some bus stops can be safely stopped on because the restriction is timed gives no leeway unless it is a pull in, read sign and leave, the general rule is if there is a broad yellow line, you cannot stop.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435477 · Replies: 19 · Views: 226

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 23:39


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Bus stops...general information for the future.
No motorist should stop at any bus stop. Just good practice.
Bus Stops with a broad yellow line along the kerb have a no stopping restriction, which means you MUST not stop on them.
While the restriction may be timed and the little yellow sign (which must be there for the No Stopping to be enforced) not easily read, avoid bus stops with broad yellow lines like the plague, 24/7. They are, as you have found out, one of the few parking restrictions that can still be enforced by camera.
In London, many, if not most or all bus stops have a camera waiting for you. Many in other towns and cities as well.
If dropping off or picking someone up, stop on double or single yellows, there is an exemption for boarding alighting.
But not on Red Lines, bus stops or zig zag markings.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435472 · Replies: 19 · Views: 226

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 23:12


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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 22:36) *
......….Dad's info was not correct, which is extremely unusual for him.
I'll post tomorrow when I have a mo.


I must be having a bad week, correct away old bean.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435467 · Replies: 24 · Views: 424

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 11:34


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The old speech of Lincoln needs rewriting.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time...…."
And if you try hard enough you can really upset everyone.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1435255 · Replies: 58 · Views: 1,418

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 11:24


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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 10:41) *
.........And I don't like his option (b), what's the legal basis for this?


There isn't but I quite like the logic.
If there is a bay marked out, it is an indication to the motorist that discretionary footway parking is allowed.
Dunno if I would rely on it but I would certainly argue it.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435250 · Replies: 77 · Views: 2,406

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 10:18


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QUOTE (SE-786 @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 10:11) *
….........From the photos the last digit looks questionable. But the model of car is different this was confirmed by typing in what we assumed was the correct reg and it shows the same car as the one in the picture.


Deffo include pictures of their car then, alongside the PCN pics and highlight differences, should be fairly simple if a different model.
This is our car, it is a Ford Fiesta (or whatever).
This is the offending car, it is a Ford Ranger.
Simple but clear.

The option to tick is that there was no contravention (as a different vehicle to yours is shown in the evidence)
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435232 · Replies: 8 · Views: 172

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:47


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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:31) *


Not much use like that is it biggrin.gif
I was (an am) expecting a Resident Parking Zone sign but where, dunno ?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435225 · Replies: 14 · Views: 128

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:39


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So 2 PCNs that are referring to relatives registration number, presumably ending in M.
Photos on the PCNs show that the last digit is H.
And the H is readable in the photos on the PCN(s)
Is this correct ?

If so, simples and no need to worry but they do need to challenge the PCNs as per the system.
Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ?????
I am not the owner or registered keeper of the vehicle involved.
The photos clearly show that the registration number of the offending vehicle is not the same as the my vehicle registration.
Offending vehicle registration ??????
My vehicle registration ?????
I assume the error is due to a mis-read of the vehicle plates and therefore the PCNs were issued to me in error.
I enclose your photo showing the correct number plate.
Please note the last digit is H.
Please confirm cancelation of the PCN.
Hugs and kisses.

Same for both PCNs
If the vehicle is visually different to yours, you can enclose some photos you your car highlighting the differences.
But be very clear with any challenge, this is not my car, PCN issued to the wrong vehicle.

On compensation, see what happens first. If TFL do what they should and simply cancel, fine, the system worked in correcting an error.
Should it go further, official complaints, costs whatever can be pursued but most can be hoped for at moment is an apology.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435221 · Replies: 8 · Views: 172

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:29


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QUOTE (disgrunt @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:20) *
Definitely remove the bit about search other streets. It implies your wife wasn't certain where they parked it.



Dunno about that.
If the car is not where thought, anyone is going to look around.
But it does need to be stressed that wife was certain but searched around after beginning to doubt herself.
And that no way it was parked where removed from because..... ?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435217 · Replies: 30 · Views: 521

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:22


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Please do, it is the pole and the different coloured tarmac that bothers me.
Take a tape measure or rule with you as well and measure the height of kerb where you were parked and either side of that coloured patch.
Photos to preserve, it may be useful.
And pictures of the opposite corners.


My concern is that you may be parked on a portion dropped to aid pedestrians, the pole, while having no status as a sign, being there to aid blind or visually impaired. There are no signs or lines required for a dropped kerb, the motorist is supposed to recognise one by its shape, form, layout and obvious use.
At the moment, I cannot see that this is obvious, any evidence that you can get that shows it is not will help.
Just from the photos we have, there seems very little difference in height and the kerb is low all around that corner.
Even if it is clearly a DK, that the kerb is dropped, that there are corresponding ones opposite, the 2nd PCN is winnable.
Get the evidence and we will know what is best.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435211 · Replies: 41 · Views: 283

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:12


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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:05) *
Are you sure?

Sums payable to recover the vehicle should be total owing, I don't know that an authority has any right to claim otherwise.

Vehicle may only be removed if PCN served and it is that PCN which legitimises removal.
But IMO once removed the charges to recover should be the toal outstanding, not just that PCN.



I agree with you but we have seen before that the payment required only covers one PCN despite two being served.
Worth checking and not falling foul of it by assuming.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435208 · Replies: 30 · Views: 521

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 09:09


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That is a cracking result, one for keeping in mind.

Doesn't mention legitimate expectation but that is what it is.
It sorta turns the normal "just cos everyone else parks like that doesn't mean you can" to that you can use habitual parking that indicates no enforcement into a positive.
This is a keeper, well done.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435207 · Replies: 77 · Views: 2,406

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 08:38


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Could you also confirm if when you collected your car, that you paid for both PCNs?
If only one, the first or second ?
You should be aware that only one PCN will be automatically covered by this challenge, the second may need a separate challenge.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435202 · Replies: 30 · Views: 521

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 07:57


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Loses focus.

While the police report and basic story is fine for background and shows timeline that supports, the basis of your challenge must be:-
Wife parked the car in Chelmer's Crescent.
Car disappeared and could not be found despite our efforts and those of police
Car was removed having been left in contravention in Hatton Place
I have no idea how it got to Hatton Place and can only assume that it was left there by persons unknown.

The problem is that there is no evidence of why or who may have moved it and this will come down to credibility.
Did you do as suggested and have a look at either location to see if any CCTV may be available.
If nothing else you must put in something about why wife is sure that she did not park it in Hatton Place.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435195 · Replies: 30 · Views: 521

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 07:46


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Ok so far.
Can we see the sign please.
And is this the street ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5347915,0...3312!8i6656
Though I fear streetview is not much use given that this seems to be some sort of new or temporary restriction.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435192 · Replies: 14 · Views: 128

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