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Reasonable adjustments for disabled person, Parking charge from Premier Parking Solutions Newton Abbot
Lizzardinablizza...
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 16:38
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Hi all,

I received a "parking charge" at Keaton Rd car park, Ivybridge, PL21 9DH. The charge states the session time was from 17:51 to 19:07

I dug out the ticket I bought and would like some help understanding the below please as I find it quite confusing.

Ticket was bought at 17:55 for an hour, costing 70p. The ticket says it expired at 18:00

The signage says 70p an hour from 08:00 til 18:00, then £2 flat rate from 18:00 til 08:00.

My question is whether the expiry is correct? In my opinion it should have expired at 18:55. It doesn't seem fair or reasonable if you're paying 70p for 5 minutes, then have to come back and put £2 in? Unless I'm reading it wrong?

Also, if my understanding is correct they've given absolutely no grace period, given ticket was bought at 17:55. I'm a disabled driver with a blue badge, should that allow me an extended grace period?

I think a £100 invoice for an overstay of 12 minutes is absolutely cruel and unfair.

Thanks.
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post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 16:38
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Jlc
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 17:10
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There are 2 issues.

Firstly the initial ticket/tariff. It does appear that the ticket was issued for 5 minutes - we'd need to see the exact signs to see if this is covered. But when the ticket was issued with an expiry of 18:00 what did you do?

Secondly the grace period. If you could successfully argue that the ticket was valid until 18:55 (which is a reasonable assumption) then you still have the issue of leaving at 19:07. A mandatory grace period of 10 minutes must be applied (but they may argue this will cover you until 18:10). Of course they must make reasonable adjustments for people with protected characteristics (Equality Act) and extra time could be argued here.

My guess is the signs say something about part-hour, thus why the expiry was 18:00. (I expect they wanted you to pay £2.70)

Now the bottom line - assuming the signage was 'correct' then they will almost certainly reject any appeal you make. Likewise, with the IAS.

From memory I believe they are litigious so a court claim is likely. However, there are many angles to argue here but seeing the signs would help lots...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Lizzardinablizza...
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 18:53
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 17:10) *
There are 2 issues.

Firstly the initial ticket/tariff. It does appear that the ticket was issued for 5 minutes - we'd need to see the exact signs to see if this is covered. But when the ticket was issued with an expiry of 18:00 what did you do?

Secondly the grace period. If you could successfully argue that the ticket was valid until 18:55 (which is a reasonable assumption) then you still have the issue of leaving at 19:07. A mandatory grace period of 10 minutes must be applied (but they may argue this will cover you until 18:10). Of course they must make reasonable adjustments for people with protected characteristics (Equality Act) and extra time could be argued here.

My guess is the signs say something about part-hour, thus why the expiry was 18:00. (I expect they wanted you to pay £2.70)

Now the bottom line - assuming the signage was 'correct' then they will almost certainly reject any appeal you make. Likewise, with the IAS.

From memory I believe they are litigious so a court claim is likely. However, there are many angles to argue here but seeing the signs would help lots...


Bi,

Thanks for your post.

I have some pictures of the signage as I went there last night to have a look
I can't upload them as they're too big for this site

I didn't do anything after I noticed the expiry as I only saw it yesterday. I assumed I've paid for an hour and put the parking ticket in the window as I was in a rush.

There is no information about part hour payment on any of the signs. It just says 08:00-18:00 up to one hour £0.70. 18:00-08:00 £2 flat rate.
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Lizzardinablizza...
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 19:16
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Hi again,

i've managed to make the photos smaller, hope they are legible...
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Jlc
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 20:51
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As a consumer you can take the most advantageous reading of an ambiguous sign (contract). I would also interpret that you would get 1 hour parking paying before 18:00.

I presume they've used ANPR - so only have entry and exit times?

Does the notice make reference to keeper liability? (Protection of Freedoms Act)

Was the registration entered correctly?

Do you still have the ticket?

Did you call their 'help' line?


After the answers above, an appeal (which they will almost certainly reject) around the fact that the contract did not start until you paid and as a person with protected characteristics you needed additional time before and afterwards - the grace period is a minimum amount. Now they know a disabled person was involved then a reasonable adjustment would be a tiny additional amount of time.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Lizzardinablizza...
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 21:06
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 20:51) *
As a consumer you can take the most advantageous reading of an ambiguous sign (contract). I would also interpret that you would get 1 hour parking paying before 18:00.

I presume they've used ANPR - so only have entry and exit times?

Does the notice make reference to keeper liability? (Protection of Freedoms Act)

Was the registration entered correctly?

Do you still have the ticket?

Did you call their 'help' line?


After the answers above, an appeal (which they will almost certainly reject) around the fact that the contract did not start until you paid and as a person with protected characteristics you needed additional time before and afterwards - the grace period is a minimum amount. Now they know a disabled person was involved then a reasonable adjustment would be a tiny additional amount of time.


Yes they've used ANPR which includes what they term "session time" that starts literally the second the car enters (5 minutes before the time on the ticket) and finishes the second the car leaves.

Yes I still have the ticket.

Yes registration was entered correctly.

The notice says "at the time of this notice we do not know the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and as the registered keeper of the vehicle you are invited to (I) pay the unpaid parking charge (ii)notify us the name and address of the driver"

I don't understand your point about protections of freedoms act in relation to my position as registered keeper. Could you please explain?

I've not phoned their "help line" as they only notify me of a payment line and I want to get my ducks in a row first.

Thanks again so much for your help.

This post has been edited by Lizzardinablizzard: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 21:21
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Jlc
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 21:46
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In regards to the help line I meant at the time but reading again you didn't have cause at the time. (Although they will argue you should have checked the ticket)

The Protection of Freedoms Act (if they have complied) allows them to pursue the keeper for the driver's unpaid parking charge if the keeper does not know or will not tell them the driver. (Contracts are only formed with the driver)

Basically if they have complied then outing the driver is not so much as issue.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 04:23
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In terms of the grace period, the owner/landholder of the car park is required to make a reasonable adjustment for those with protected characteristics, do you qualify?

If so get onto the owner/landholder and point this out, that they have failed to make such an adjustment via their agent PPS and suggest that as they are now aware you have protected characteristics they instruct their agent to cancel rather than them be in breach of the equality act. You can start this off friendly but start getting bullish if/when you need to, landholders are often keen to fob you off to the parking company who frankly won't give a toss but it is THEIR legal obligation and if their agent breaches the EA then so do they.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:57
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Yep< i would say if you pay at 17:59 70p. you would have 1 hours parking
The sign offers teh contract, the ticket cannot contradict this.
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Lizzardinablizza...
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 11:39
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 04:23) *
In terms of the grace period, the owner/landholder of the car park is required to make a reasonable adjustment for those with protected characteristics, do you qualify?

If so get onto the owner/landholder and point this out, that they have failed to make such an adjustment via their agent PPS and suggest that as they are now aware you have protected characteristics they instruct their agent to cancel rather than them be in breach of the equality act. You can start this off friendly but start getting bullish if/when you need to, landholders are often keen to fob you off to the parking company who frankly won't give a toss but it is THEIR legal obligation and if their agent breaches the EA then so do they.


Thanks for your help.

In terms of disability, I am in receipt of PIP and the higher rate of mobility which entitles me to free vehicle tax and a blue badge.

I am also unable to work.

I understand the definition of disability is having a condition that affects your day-to-day life and has been or is expected to last for more than a year.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 13:52
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If you have a BB you almost certainly qualify!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Lizzardinablizza...
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 14:38
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Hello,

I'm considering appealing now.

Not sure if the sticky advice thread about "penalties not being enforcable" still applies in 2019? I thought that had changed and PPC can issue penalties after a court case?

I'm still unclear about exactly what I should write in my appeal after reading the stickies, given the above about penalties?

Should I appeal along the lines of what I've written in this thread or use a standard template?

I don't think I can appeal to POPLA as they're not a member of the BPA.

Thanks.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 16:40
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Have you contacted the landowner yet?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Lizzardinablizza...
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 17:48
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 16:40) *
Have you contacted the landowner yet?

Hi,

I've emailed the "business rates" team at South Hams district council straight after being advised to, about 9 days ago to find out who pays the business rates at this car park and I've heard nothing, despite the webpage saying they'll try to get back within 3 business days.

No idea how else to find out who the landowner is?!
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 07:41
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Google
Call the council
Chase up your email

You have to take the lead on this.
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