PCN 34J Newham London Romford Road E12, Tricky bus lane marking situation Options

[Stoker]

Hello everyone!

I have received a 34J - Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) PCN, which I believe is quite unreasonable. Since receiving the first enforcement notice, I have appealed against the PCN by submitting an informal appeal, which has been rejected.

I have attached pictures, and a video for your reference. My vehicle is the blue van. I have barely entered the bus lane, if at all. As you can see, the markings and road conditions are also quite terrible. What do you think is the best way to formally challenge this PCN? I will be really annoyed if I have to pay this fine since it is literally pointless...

Additionally, I had to wait for over 2 months (more than 56 days) for the council to reply to my initial appeal. However, I did see this on my council's website:
"By law we must respond to On/Off-street and CCTV representation within 56 days of receiving your appeal. Note that Bus Lane and Moving Contravention representations will be responded to within 3 months."
Is that true? Why would they take longer to respond to bus lane appeals?

Link to council video evidence:
https://youtu.be/0Bs9qlcmlvw

Council picture evidence:



This is the reply I received to my initial appeal:
Page1
Page2

Enforcement notice:
EN1
EN2
EN3

What grounds do I have to make formal representations in the best way possible?

Thank you, in advance!

This post has been edited by Stoker: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 - 18:33

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[Incandescent]

Video link doesn't work: -

Video unavailable
This video is private.

That is their sole evidence, the PCN photos are taken from it. It is key that we see it.

[PASTMYBEST]

We also need to see the PCN your challenge their rejection and the EN

[Stoker]

Video should now be working.

Unfortunately, I do not have the initial appeal I sent to them, but I basically said that I do not believe I have driven into the bus lane (if anything, only my wheels have driven over the white line) and I have not obstructed any bus. I might also have mentioned that I had to reposition my vehicle slightly closer to the bus lane because of an incoming car, but I can't remember as I submitted the appeal back in December.

[stamfordman]

The main lane does look quite narrow and there was an oncoming vehicle. There's a lane near me where if there is an oncoming bus I actually have to stop to avoid entering a lane. This is a trivial and petty PCN. It's a shame we can't see what the oncoming vehicle was - if a bus or truck then you are wise to keep clear.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 - 15:59

[Stoker]

Thanks, stamfordman. Yes, it is very very petty which is why I am hoping to get it cancelled.

It's not letting me upload an attachment, but this is the reply I received to my initial appeal:
Page1
Page2

This post has been edited by Stoker: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 - 16:46

[paulajayne]

Trivial and Petty does not cover it. Looks to be a large oncoming vehicle.

[PASTMYBEST]

An argument can be made that you had to move over slightly to avoid an argument the shortness of the video will in fact help that argument They also fetter their discretion by saying anyone that enters bus lane WILL get a PCN, they have a discretion not to enforce. and IMO this is one of those situations even if a contravention is proved

I would suggest you post the PCN then wait for the EN and we will then help you draft a representation

[Stoker]

An argument can be made that you had to move over slightly to avoid an argument the shortness of the video will in fact help that argument They also fetter their discretion by saying anyone that enters bus lane WILL get a PCN, they have a discretion not to enforce. and IMO this is one of those situations even if a contravention is proved

I would suggest you post the PCN then wait for the EN and we will then help you draft a representation

I have received the enforcement notice, and I am due to present formal representations, so any help regarding a draft would be greatly appreciated.

I have included pictures of the enforcement letter in my post.

Thanks!



This post has been edited by Stoker: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 - 16:50

[PASTMYBEST]

Please post the PCN and enforcement notice there are often errors. We will help you but like to get everything in

[Stoker]

Please post the PCN and enforcement notice there are often errors. We will help you but like to get everything in

Enforcement notice:
EN1
EN2
EN3

This is the reply I received to my initial appeal:
Page1
Page2

Sorry for the links, but the attachment feature is acting up and not letting me upload the pictures directly.

I can't find the original (first) PCN letter but I will upload it if I do find it.

This post has been edited by Stoker: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 - 18:33

[stamfordman]

This is about the place?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5485574,0.0...6384!8i8192

As I reckoned like a lot of roads where they do this I think the lane you were in is the narrowest as they have to make the bus lane wide. The oncoming lane also has a cycle track that narrows it too. In this link there's an oncoming van that's right on the centre - you'd have to move over to be safe.

[Stoker]

This is about the place?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5485574,0.0...6384!8i8192

As I reckoned like a lot of roads where they do this I think the lane you were in is the narrowest as they have to make the bus lane wide. The oncoming lane also has a cycle track that narrows it too. In this link there's an oncoming van that's right on the centre - you'd have to move over to be safe.

Yes, that is the place. I agree with you. The lane I was on definitely is narrow, and an oncoming van would be a good reason for another van, in my lane, to enter the bus lane. Do you think these reasons should be enough to get the PCN dropped?

[PASTMYBEST]

This is about the place?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5485574,0.0...6384!8i8192

As I reckoned like a lot of roads where they do this I think the lane you were in is the narrowest as they have to make the bus lane wide. The oncoming lane also has a cycle track that narrows it too. In this link there's an oncoming van that's right on the centre - you'd have to move over to be safe.

Yes, that is the place. I agree with you. The lane I was on definitely is narrow, and an oncoming van would be a good reason for another van, in my lane, to enter the bus lane. Do you think these reasons should be enough to get the PCN dropped?

Yep I will draft you a representation later

[Stoker]

This is about the place?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5485574,0.0...6384!8i8192

As I reckoned like a lot of roads where they do this I think the lane you were in is the narrowest as they have to make the bus lane wide. The oncoming lane also has a cycle track that narrows it too. In this link there's an oncoming van that's right on the centre - you'd have to move over to be safe.

Yes, that is the place. I agree with you. The lane I was on definitely is narrow, and an oncoming van would be a good reason for another van, in my lane, to enter the bus lane. Do you think these reasons should be enough to get the PCN dropped?

Yep I will draft you a representation later

Great, thank you

[PASTMYBEST]

PCN number xxxxxxxxx
VRM AA 23 BCD

(your details)

I make representations against te above PCN under the statutory ground

That there was no breach of an order or regulations of the type described in subsection (2) of the said section 4

I would refer to te CCTV footage provided as evidence of the alleged contravention. This footage is remarkably short, only 7 seconds. However at the very end of the footage there is just coming into view quite a large vehicle, this vehicles headlights appear very bright. The vehicle is also quite far over close to te central dividing line of the opposing lanes. This may have been due to the cycle lane on the opposing carriageway causing a narrowing of the lanes, or at least in the darkness a perception that this is so

It appeared to me that in order to avoid a collision I had to move over to the left. I did so. As such any incursion into the bus lane must be exempted, for it cannot be right that one would have to choose between an accident and a penalty.

Further, I contend that in order for a contravention to occur the whole of a wheel would need to be across the solid white line. The CCTV shows this is not the case, For this reason also no contravention occurred .

Even if the authority were to contest this, I submit that the principle of de minimis must surely apply and enforcement should not therefore continue.

Lastly, an enforcing authority always has a discretion not to pursue a PCN even if they think a contravention did occur. In saying that all vehicles contravening a bus lane will receive a PCN, they have fettered that discretion, failing in their public law duty and for this reason also enforcement cannot rightly continue

For any one or all of these reasons I invite the authority to cancel this PCN

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 - 17:41

[Stoker]

PCN number xxxxxxxxx
VRM AA 23 BCD

(your details)

I make representations against te above PCN under the statutory ground

That there was no breach of an order or regulations of the type described in subsection (2) of the said section 4

I would refer to te CCTV footage provided as evidence of the alleged contravention. This footage is remarkably short, only 7 seconds. However at the very end of the footage there is just coming into view quite a large vehicle, this vehicles headlights appear very bright. Te vehicle is also quite far over close to te central dividing line of the opposing lanes.

It appeared to me that in order to avoid a collision I had to move over to the left. I did so. As such any incursion into the bus lane must be exempted, for it cannot be right that one would have to choose between an accident and a penalty.

Further, I contend that in order for a contravention to occur te whole of a wheel would need to be across the solid white line. The CCTV shows this is not the case, For this reason also no contravention occurred .

Even if the authority were to contest this, I submit that the principle of de minimis must surely apply and enforcement should not therefore continue.

Lastly, an enforcing authority always has a discretion not to pursue a PCN even if they think a contravention did occur. In saying that all vehicles contravening a bus lane will receive a PCN, they have fettered that discretion, failing in there public law duty and for this reason also enforcement cannot rightly continue

For any one or all of these reasons I invite te authority to cancel this PCN

Appreciate it!

If anyone else does have any more points I can add on to the draft, please let me know! Thanks

[stamfordman]

You could add my point about your lane being narrower than the others but I can't prove it - it seems so on GSV.

There are a few typos that need cleaning up (The for te 3x for one).

[Gert]

The only point I would consider is whether the vehicle's nearside wheels actually cross the white line at any point in the footage. It doesn't look like it to me, they appear that they are on the white line. I would make the point in order to enter the bus lane you would have to cross the white line so that the whole tyre is in the bus lane.

[PASTMYBEST]

You could add my point about your lane being narrower than the others but I can't prove it - it seems so on GSV.

There are a few typos that need cleaning up (The for te 3x for one).

I'm either losing my marbles or the H key is not working properly (and I've had to correct this sentence) I will ad a sentence re this stamf its a good point

The only point I would consider is whether the vehicle's nearside wheels actually cross the white line at any point in the footage. It doesn't look like it to me, they appear that they are on the white line. I would make the point in order to enter the bus lane you would have to cross the white line so that the whole tyre is in the bus lane.

see the third paragraph covers this

Now amended to take account of the grammatical errors (I hope) and added a sentence as per Stamf

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 - 17:42