APCOA charge for driving through railway station |
APCOA charge for driving through railway station |
Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 13:12
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 12 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,860 |
Hi,
I just received a 'parking charge notice' from APCOA connect. The notice is dated 10 Jan but says the contravention was on 8 Dec which I believe from browsing other posts means it's contravened a 14 day rule but I don't know more than this. I think the notice relates to my car being driven through the railway station - it says it's for use of a private car park without valid payment/permit. They want me to pay £50 within 14 days or £100 within 28 days, or to notify them of details of the driver. Please can somebody advise what I should do? Is there any way I can appeal? Thanks |
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 13:12
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 14:02
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So let's see the redacted PCN, both sides
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 14:04
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14 Dec 2018 From: Sussex Member No.: 101,446 |
You certainly can, and should, appeal. The important things to remember are: do not name the driver and string out every part of the appeal for as long as possible. Read the Newbies threads. I’m no expert, but the heavyweights (meant in a highly complimentary way) will almost certainly reply and will give you extremely useful advice.
-------------------- “Nobody leaves their house because they want to go and do some parking; parking is simply a means to an end, and it should be as easy as possible.” Rishi Sunak, MP
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 14:29
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
You 'think' this is a station car park - Is it or isn't it? What is the location on the PCN? This is quite crucial to how you attack them. GSV link would be useful.
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 14:52
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 12 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,860 |
Thanks - I'll get the PCN uploaded now. It must have been for driving through the station - but they don't actually specify that, just that it was 'use of a private car park'. I think there are signs saying it's not a through way but I'm not sure of the exact wording and know it's a commonly used route through the station.
Here is the PCN - hopefully I've done it correctly! Thanks for the replies Back of letter here (hopefully) I just checked on GSV and there is a sign saying 'No through road. Station access only. APCOA automatic number plate recognition in operation' but there is no mention of a potential fine. I can also see another sign which seems to have lots of text on it but it's not legible from GSV or whilst driving - I think it's about parking etc but can't be certain... This post has been edited by justchecking: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 15:37 |
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 15:00
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
You 'think' this is a station car park - Is it or isn't it? What is the location on the PCN? This is quite crucial to how you attack them. GSV link would be useful. -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 15:10
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 12 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,860 |
I've included the PCN above - this is the GSV link https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5142448,-...6384!8i8192
Hopefully that will work - sorry this is all new to me! |
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 15:11
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Certainly looks like it’s for a station car park, in which case the 14 days is irrelevant, in addition there may be some grounds for them to offer a penalty notice, but almost none for a parking charge notice.
Is there any indication on the length of time between entry and exit? -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 15:13
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 12 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,860 |
Certainly looks like it’s for a station car park, in which case the 14 days is irrelevant, in addition there may be some grounds for them to offer a penalty notice, but almost none for a parking charge notice. Is there any indication on the length of time between entry and exit? Thanks - no it just gives the time and states it's a Parking Charge Notice - it doesn't even mention that it's for driving through the station but that's all it could be as the car wasn't parked there. The photos do not have a timestamp and are presumably the car arriving and leaving but it doesn't actually specify this. Shame about the 14 days - I was hoping that would work in our favour! |
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 15:31
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,053 Joined: 20 May 2013 Member No.: 62,052 |
The front page of that PCN still shows your car VRN (below the LH photo)
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 15:35
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 12 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,860 |
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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 23:26
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
This is a parking charge notice with no mention of byelaws so a combined attack on them. The signs do say station access only, no through road but they lie. It's possible to go right through the station and out the other side. There are cameras at both ends of the road. As you say there is nothing on there to show that the car parked.
What are the timings on the photos? Sorry I've just read that there were no times. Can you reduce the redactions a little so that it may be possible to guess which cameras took the photos. They are trying to make use of POFA on the back page so: Dear Sirs, I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx The land is railway property and subject to byelaws therefore no keeper liability under Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 exists. Even if POFA was applicable you have failed to comply with the requirements of the Act namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so. Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct. Yours etc This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 23:29 |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 08:18
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 12 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,860 |
This is a parking charge notice with no mention of byelaws so a combined attack on them. The signs do say station access only, no through road but they lie. It's possible to go right through the station and out the other side. There are cameras at both ends of the road. As you say there is nothing on there to show that the car parked. What are the timings on the photos? Sorry I've just read that there were no times. Can you reduce the redactions a little so that it may be possible to guess which cameras took the photos. They are trying to make use of POFA on the back page so: Dear Sirs, I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx The land is railway property and subject to byelaws therefore no keeper liability under Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 exists. Even if POFA was applicable you have failed to comply with the requirements of the Act namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so. Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct. Yours etc This is incredibly helpful - thank you so much! Sorry, I was probably being overcautious with the photos - didn't know how much it was safe for me to show. This should give a better idea: The car was definitely not parked at any time so they certainly won't have anything which indicates this. I'm assuming it was a photo on entry and a photo at exit - as you say it is accessible to the public from both roads so it certainly is a through road - and I can't see anything which indicates that there might be a fine for driving through (if there is anything then it must be in small print somewhere which is not clear to drivers when passing through). Really appreciate your help - this has been worrying me quite significantly as we're currently in a legal battle and skint having been conned out of 15k by our builder so this is the last thing I needed!! |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 08:45
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
If there is no duration of ‘parking’ there can be no PoFA compliance, even entry and exit times/difference would be close. So multiple PoFA compliance failures on what THEY state is not a byelaw penalty.
As such I would treat it as NOT a byelaw penalty and appeal solely on lack of PoFA compliance. I wouldn’t send Ostells appeal as I think right now it’s beneficial to treat it as an invoice, they will out themselves if they then try and correct to a byelaw penalty. Of course with any railway land appeal send it to arrive as late as possible within the time scales to drag out the process as king as possible. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 09:01
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So here's the location as the car comes in from the west
And exiting in the east of the site Unfortunately these are 2015/2016 photos but the locations look right, even though the road markings are improved. I think a slightly modified appeal to them Dear Sirs, I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx The land is railway property and subject to byelaws therefore no keeper liability under Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 exists. Even if POFA was applicable you have failed to comply with the requirements of the Act namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. Apart from the failure detailed above you have not provided any period of parking, as required by 9 (2) (a). Indeed it would be difficult to give such a time as I understand that the vehicle was never parked. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so. Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct. Yours etc QUOTE we're currently in a legal battle and skint having been conned out of 15k by our builder so this is the last thing I needed! Have you tried asking for assistance on Legal Beagles ? Quite a few builder ones already there. This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 09:04 |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 20:45
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 12 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,860 |
So here's the location as the car comes in from the west And exiting in the east of the site Unfortunately these are 2015/2016 photos but the locations look right, even though the road markings are improved. I think a slightly modified appeal to them Dear Sirs, I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx The land is railway property and subject to byelaws therefore no keeper liability under Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 exists. Even if POFA was applicable you have failed to comply with the requirements of the Act namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. Apart from the failure detailed above you have not provided any period of parking, as required by 9 (2) (a). Indeed it would be difficult to give such a time as I understand that the vehicle was never parked. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so. Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct. Yours etc QUOTE we're currently in a legal battle and skint having been conned out of 15k by our builder so this is the last thing I needed! Have you tried asking for assistance on Legal Beagles ? Quite a few builder ones already there. Thanks - so I should wait until the 14 days are nearly up then do this? Or should I wait the full 28 days? I haven't tried Legal Beagles but I'll check them out too - thanks! We've already got a CCJ against the guy but he's started trading under a new name so is just ignoring everything...! |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 21:02
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Send it so that they receive it on day 26.
Unless I am missing something, I can't find any appeals information on there. However, they don't seem to know whether they want payment in 14 or 28 days. Another point of which to keep a note. -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 21:53
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Note I changed the letter a little
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 13:21
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
You can find it on their website
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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 15:07
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 12 Jan 2019 Member No.: 101,860 |
Hi all, so I submitted the appeal on day 26 as advised and I’ve today received a notice advising that my appeal has been unsuccessful. It states that the car was parked without valid payment - I know for a fact that it was never parked and so I need to appeal to the independent appeals service but would appreciate your help.
The photos don’t show times and there is obviously no photo of the car being parked as it never was. I know on one occasion there was about a 3 minute delay as a bus was blocking the road so I’m wondering if this was the issue, but there would’ve been a maximum of 5 minutes between the photos if so (and it was never parked in any way). Please can you advise what I should put in the appeal? Hopefully I’ve attached a copy of their response but I’ll upload it this evening if it hasn’t worked. Thank you! This post has been edited by justchecking: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 16:04 |
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