11 minute overstay at The Range Options

[physicist]

Afternoon, all.

I'm writing on behalf of a friend. A driver used their car and parked at The Range. They inadvertently stayed for 2h11min - 11min longer than the free time permitted. They've received an NtK from PE through the post.

I've had an initial look over it; I think it's all in line with PoFA. The NtK was issued three days after the parking incident and delivered two days after that so all within timeframe, and it looks to me like the text meets all the requirements to hold the keeper liable.





It also looks like asking The Range to intervene doesn't work - all the references I can see are of their customer services just saying that it's with PE and they won't step in.

Do they have options here?

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[Jlc]

Do they have options here?

PE won't accept any appeal. POPLA will agree it's been issued correctly.

The only option is to fight at court if they raise a claim.

[physicist]

Thanks - that confirms what I thought. I've helped people beat off quite a few pcns that weren't PoFA compliant, but I've never yet tried to help with one that was.

If they did take this all the way, I believe there's a fair chance that PE would issue a county court claim? And that the outcome of such a hearing is quite possibly going to be in PE's favour?

This post has been edited by physicist: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 - 17:28

[Jlc]

They are quite litigious but 11 minutes is arguable. Minimum grace is 10 minutes.

[ostell]

They are quite litigious but 11 minutes is arguable. Minimum grace is 10 minutes.

The Code of Practise changed at the start of this year to a minimum of 5 minutes grace period. They were losing too much with 10

[Jlc]

They are quite litigious but 11 minutes is arguable. Minimum grace is 10 minutes.

The Code of Practise changed at the start of this year to a minimum of 5 minutes grace period. They were losing too much with 10

No, the 5 minutes grace is at the start of parking to decide whether to accept the contract or leave (13.1).

It's still 10 minutes at the end (13.3).

[ostell]

I stand corrected !!

I stand corrected !!

So is the overstay rounded up to 11 mins, ie 10 and <59 seconds? And since these were 2 different cameras were the clocks synchronised? I have a set of cameras that get out of synch on a regular basis.

[Umkomaas]

It also looks like asking The Range to intervene doesn't work - all the references I can see are of their customer services just saying that it's with PE and they won't step in.

That's always been the standard 'intel' about The Range. But fairly recently, and maybe uniquely, a MSE poster reported a positive and successful intervention by The Range. Possibly a long shot, but it may be worth a go, as post Covid-19, they are going to need customers returning to their stores. More of a struggle for them than hitherto as we have all become, out of necessity, more familiar with and accustomed to pretty slick online ordering and delivery systems, from the comfort of home where there is no risk of inhaling a stranger's airborne microscopic cough spittle or droplets of their sneeze-propelled mucus!

And no risk of a parking ticket either!

This post has been edited by Umkomaas: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 11:06

[physicist]

Thanks, all.

The exact overstay is something like 11 min 30 sec. I am quite sure that PE will stick to their guns and say that this is clearly longer than the ten mins they have been told they must apply as a minimum.

Is there any feasible argument that they could argue that there were five minutes elapsed between entering past the first ANPR camera and parking, plus less than two hours were spent actually parked, plus ten minutes spent queueing to get out?

The situation is that, if I can persuade the friend that an appeal would win (either at first appeal or PoPLA) then they'll go with it. But I very much expect that if I tell them they'll lose at PoPLA and this will go on to the County Court, and that they will need to defend themselves there in front of a judge, they will decide to pay up now - especially if we can't guarantee a win at court. Trying to show that the cameras may not have been perfectly synced when they've already used up a 10 minute grace period doesn't sound terribly convincing. If it was me I'd think about fighting this but I don't think they'll go for it.

I'm going to suggest to them that they go hell for leather on the appeal to The Range - there were apparently massive queues and that certainly slowed them down in paying and leaving - and see if we can get them to cancel as landowner. And if that doesn't come off then, very reluctantly, to pay up. Unless anyone's got anything stronger to contest on?

If it comes to that - any hope of bartering PE down from £60, do you think?

[Jlc]

Is there any feasible argument that they could argue that there were five minutes elapsed between entering past the first ANPR camera and parking, plus less than two hours were spent actually parked, plus ten minutes spent queueing to get out?

Yes, of course. The actual parked time from when the contract was agreed and exit was well within the 10 minutes grace period.

especially if we can't guarantee a win at court. Trying to show that the cameras may not have been perfectly synced when they've already used up a 10 minute grace period doesn't sound terribly convincing. If it was me I'd think about fighting this but I don't think they'll go for it.

Personally, I think the sync argument has no legs - both camera's are synchronised from the same source. The defence is not that the camera's are incorrect but that the period of parking is with the stated allowed time and any grace. The time moving is clearly not parking.

But some Judges just don't get it.

I'm going to suggest to them that they go hell for leather on the appeal to The Range - there were apparently massive queues and that certainly slowed them down in paying and leaving - and see if we can get them to cancel as landowner. And if that doesn't come off then, very reluctantly, to pay up. Unless anyone's got anything stronger to contest on?

Yes, the stores do have the ability to override - but generally much easier if within the store at the time. COVID has created a lot longer shopping experience - again all part of a frustrated contract argument too...

If it comes to that - any hope of bartering PE down from £60, do you think?

Not a chance.

PE may not pursue this to court but don't bank on it.

[physicist]

Again, thanks.

So the argument that 2h11m between ANPR captures almost certainly does not mean 2h0m actually parked might well be viable - but this would need to be argued at court, right?

Umkomaas, do you happen to have a link to the MSE thread where The Range cancelled? I've just tried to find it but MSE's search function isn't coming up with it for me...

The only other thing is that I don't know about the signage on site. Is there any mileage in me asking them to get photos to check compliance?

[Umkomaas]

Umkomaas, do you happen to have a link to the MSE thread where The Range cancelled? I've just tried to find it but MSE's search function isn't coming up with it for me...

The only other thing is that I don't know about the signage on site. Is there any mileage in me asking them to get photos to check compliance?

I think it might be this one. It's the most recent, please have a look through it and see if you can draw anything from it. I read soooo many threads on MSE every day that the minute detail of the cases are impossible (for me!) to retain.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discus...pening-hours/p1

In terms of signage - it's pretty much the most important point in private parking cases. The PPC accusation is that their contract with the driver was broken by the driver. The signage is the contract. It's vital in almost every case that the 'accused' gets their own photographs of the contract, sufficiently well focussed to read the detail. Also photos of the height of such signage, any that is (part) obscured by bush/tree growth and the distribution of the signage.

The RK should map out a diagram of the car park and mark out where individual signs are located. PE will produce their own. Often PPCs submit a pretty amateurish Google Map birds eye view of the car park with felt tip crosses. Often they just guess the distribution of the signs. Having your own version provides the opportunity to challenge theirs. At some sites, PE rely on signs that are little larger than A4 size, which would be unlikely to meet the BPA Code of Practice minimum standard, so photographic evidence would be great in those circumstances.

Many court decisions pivot on signage.

This post has been edited by Umkomaas: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 20:56

[physicist]

Thanks, Umkomaas. It looks like that MSE thread ends with the suggestion that The Range may have told PE to back off - there seems no other reason for them to have pulled their claim before PoPLA decided. So it might be worth going hard on them to call PE off with this one too.

If the signage is too small or poorly placed - is there a chance PoPLA would rule in her favour on those grounds? Or is this only really ammunition for county court?

This post has been edited by physicist: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 21:39

[nosferatu1001]

Of course POPLA can agree tht signage is rubbish. But it is something you have to hamnmer home with lots of pics.

[Umkomaas]

If the signage is too small or poorly placed - is there a chance PoPLA would rule in her favour on those grounds? Or is this only really ammunition for county court?

Important in both cases. POPLA predictability is becoming more difficult as we've seen some weird decisions, sometimes the courts are no better, but more seem to be swinging our way. The main point is to load as many gun barrels as possible, hopefully enough to dissuade PE from moving forward. But it's all a game of poker!

In terms of POPLA, they are not considering appeals at the moment, as long as you put in a 'holding' statement to the effect that developing your full appeal is being hampered by lockdown issues, that's enough to have registered with their system, then await your next steps information from them. How they will unravel all this in the months to come is anyone's guess, but my view is that the greater the mess they are in the more it plays to the advantage of the motorist than to the PPC.

You must get the 'holding' statement in by the actual POPLA appeal deadline date. If you can get the full appeal done in time, there's no reason to hold it back artificially. Please see the POPLA website for up to date information on their temporary suspension of the appeals process.

[physicist]

So she's spoken to The Range, and they have agreed to tell PE to cancel the PCN. Result. I did discover that she has a disability so I'd instructed her to quote the 2010 Equality Act's requirement for reasonable adjustments.

I'm not sure if it was the Equality Act that won this, or if The Range are generally cancelling PCNs at the moment - trying to get clarification as I'm sure this will be useful for others to know.

Now - all we have at the moment is a verbal promise that the PCN will be cancelled - nothing in writing. Ought we write to PE and tell them that this is the case and we don't expect to hear from them again, or should we trust that The Range will deal with it..?

[Umkomaas]

So she's spoken to The Range, and they have agreed to tell PE to cancel the PCN. Result. I did discover that she has a disability so I'd instructed her to quote the 2010 Equality Act's requirement for reasonable adjustments.

I'm not sure if it was the Equality Act that won this, or if The Range are generally cancelling PCNs at the moment - trying to get clarification as I'm sure this will be useful for others to know.

Now - all we have at the moment is a verbal promise that the PCN will be cancelled - nothing in writing. Ought we write to PE and tell them that this is the case and we don't expect to hear from them again, or should we trust that The Range will deal with it..?

A good result so far. PE are very efficient at writing to confirm the cancellation (7-10 days), but meantime why not look at your PCN on their website, going as if to pay it, and check its status. Give it a few days for the instruction from The Range to percolate down.

You could also email the person at The Range and record your understanding of what was agreed in your discussion and politely ask if they could confirm with a quick reply that it concurs with their recollection.

[Dave65]

And remember Facebook and Twitter to make others aware and maybe the Range will take notice of thier potential customers being treated like this during covid 19.

[physicist]

Thanks. I shall tell them to keep an eye on PE's website to see the cancellation takes place.

By the sounds of it they did major on arguing the Equality Act, so this might not be directly comparable to a similar situation with an able bodied person.

[The Rookie]

It has to be borne in mind that the 10mins grace was implemented as a PR move - they even worded it thus when introduced - to replicate the 10 mins that the government mandated that local authorities apply to overstay.

However local authorities cannot use ANPR so in a P&D (or display free ticket) car park the clock starts running at least a minute (more likely two) after the car enters the car park when the driver gets their ticket, and the 10 minute grace would end when the driver got back to the car (even the most venal councils rarely ticket if the driver is in the act of leaving) well before actually exiting the car park, as such an ANPR car park would actually need a grace period of 15 minutes to replicate the 10 applied in council car parks.