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PCN - No right turn
nfin
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 10:19
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Hi newbie here, recently received a pcn for a no right turn violation. I just wanted confirmation if where the sign is positioned is legal or not.
apparently for vehicles travelling upto 20mph the sign should be visible from a distance of 45mtrs - however, the no right turn is from a car park underneath my local Sainsburys store so is not visible until you are almost out of the car park, giving a approx. distance of no more than 10mtrs. There is a left turn arrow marked on the road.
the road in question is ravensdale avenue in N12 North Finchley
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post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 10:19
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stamfordman
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 10:36
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here - the angle of the exit road is a guide surely - but the sign on the other side seems wrongly placed. Is there no sign in the car park exit?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6183335,-0....6384!8i8192
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nfin
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 10:49
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:36) *
here - the angle of the exit road is a guide surely - but the sign on the other side seems wrongly placed. Is there no sign in the car park exit?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6183335,-0....6384!8i8192


Hi, I will check if any signs in the car park, but question is if there are any signs in the car park do they have any baring on this as they would be in a private car park and not on the public highway
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stamfordman
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 10:58
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See if there's a video on council site. And post all the PCN.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

Put videos on Youtube, Imgur or such like.
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nfin
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:22
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photos are
https://ibb.co/wBqLGQY
https://ibb.co/XWV0V8f

video should be visible here
https://vimeo.com/user100965168/review/349021259/40e0fdb686
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Starworshipper12
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:25
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This link works:

https://vimeo.com/349021259
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nfin
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:01
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just been to the car park, no signs before you exit
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:04
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QUOTE (nfin @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:01) *
just been to the car park, no signs before you exit


post both sides of the PCN


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nfin
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:20
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cant seem to upload anything..will keep trying

heres a link to the pcn
https://ibb.co/tbZjYrp
https://ibb.co/qgCs8Fw
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Mr Mustard
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:22
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Turning right at this location is hard work. I lost the one case I took to adjudication and wasn't surprised.


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nfin
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:25
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so you've been done here too? what was the reason for loosing the case?
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:46
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The council truncate the time they may serve a CC by at least 2 days this has won in the past


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nfin
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:19
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:46) *
The council truncate the time they may serve a CC by at least 2 days this has won in the past


sorry mate not sure what you mean, please explain
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:35
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It would have to be a documentation flaw because the OP ignored two signs and a road marking.

Here's the exit one that the OP couldn't find:-

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6183329,-0....6384!8i8192

Mick
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nfin
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:46
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cheers Mad Mic....my question is still about the visibility of the signs as I thought that they had to be visible for at least 40mtrs...is this case the one on the opposite side of the road is only visible for less than 10mtrs and the one nearest is prob less than 5 mtrs -
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Mr Mustard
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 14:02
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I lost because there was no evidence of the traffic accident causing a jam as my client alleged, the car behind her managing to go the correct way.

The decision about signs will be 'are they adequate to convey the necessary information', rather than they can't be sited there as there isn't 45m of clear sight line. It is patently obvious by the road layout which way you are meant to go. I think an adjudicator will find the signs are adequate. Never mind on the way out you saw the road layout on the way in, which was also from the High Rd. This location has been like this since the Sainsburys was built, years ago, and is designed to preserve the tranquility of a residential road.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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nfin
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 14:20
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thanks Mr Mustard, I understand what you are saying about the location of the signs, but is the 45mtr distance a regulation or requirement - if it is a requirement then surely there would have to be a change in the law for the pcn to stand
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cp8759
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 12:45
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The legal test for the signs (and hence the PCN) to be valid is that they must be substantially compliant with the regulations, and must adequately convey the restrictions. IMO fighting the contravention on its merits would be hopeless.

However there is a flaw on the PCN, it states they can serve a charge certificate 28 days after the date of the notice, while the law only allows them to do so after 28 days from the date of service of the notice. We don't know any of the dates because you've hidden them, but the date of service is two working days after the date of issue (weekends don't count).


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