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Penalty charge - recent visit to London
davesahd
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 17:59
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I would ask, when is a left turn actually a left turn?

This incident took place on 26th August, but I did not receive any notification until 1st October. It took that long
for the Car Hire place to forward the documents to my residence in California

The PCN is for illegal left turn. I must admit the driving is not particularly elegant; it was due to being in an unfamiliar
area and trying to navigate by a hand-held Sat Nav (phone) controlled by a passenger

For now, I have written to the council asking them to rescind the action since no left turn took place.

Any thoughts?
http://sendvid.com/aut8788z
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post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 17:59
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Neil B
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 07:52
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 21:47) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 22:38) *
[quote name='davesahd' post='1475518' date='Tue, 2 Apr 2019 -

I wondered, but it is only representations not appeal and to start challenging the contravention now would just give them something to grab hold of.

I cannot see any logic in cp's suggestion.

To explain for Dave's benefit:
Moving traffic contraventions are enforced under 'The London Local Authorities & Transport for London Act 2003'

Your PCN, citing TMA 2004 is therefore a nullity from the top.

It cannot make sense to allege a load of missing content which isn't missing at all because cp
is quoting from the act that doesn't apply.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 09:13
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Neil, to be fair, we all believe the PCN to be a nullity so what CP has done is demonstrate that in very practical terms.

If the authority pursue the penalty under the legislation quoted they can't because a, b, c, would apply---therefore we have a nullity, QED.

I understand where you are coming from on the applicable Act that is why we must ensure that one of their decision makers also takes a view on the video in that it proves the contravention did not occur.

I believe anything less than the CP draft and the video argument might provide wriggle room. We have to ensure that the submission is complicated enough for the reps to be sent to the Council by the agent.

Wriggle room in that we say you've used the wrong legislation and the agent reissues under the 2003 legislation. It would be wrong but it's likely to happen.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 09:18
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Neil B
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 10:47
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I don't mind going with the consensus Mick as the case can't ultimately be lost anyway.

Just a bit confused by the upside down approach.
Then again, I can see that it be funny if Ealing responded by saying we're quoting the wrong
legislation, when they have.

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 09:13) *
I understand where you are coming from on the applicable Act that is why we must ensure that one of their decision makers also takes a view on the video in that it proves the contravention did not occur.

Just a minor concern on that; the possibility the length of the reps will deter such viewing?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 10:51
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I agree with Neil - keep it simple, stupid (KISS).
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 12:52
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When we say KISS we haven't really developed the aspect of international debt collection. What would happen to the OP if he ever returns to the UK and tries to rent a vehicle? Is he under any obligation to pay and what recourse does the Council or its agent have in chasing this debt in the USA if he decided not to pay?

To me this case is interesting because IIRC it's the first time we have seen what is essentially Euro Parking's documentation. We don't know what the contractual arrangements between that company and the Council are. I would imagine there are occasions when a Council would sell its "bad debt" to such companies for 10p in the £. However I think the Council are still in the game and following due process.

So, if the appeal is rejected, we haven't even plumbed the complexity of this case.

My comments were based on the tactics we should employ because the appeal has to be sent to Euro Parking and we don't have any history/background of dealing with them.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 12:53
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cp8759
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 13:41
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 13:52) *
When we say KISS we haven't really developed the aspect of international debt collection. What would happen to the OP if he ever returns to the UK and tries to rent a vehicle? Is he under any obligation to pay and what recourse does the Council or its agent have in chasing this debt in the USA if he decided not to pay?

Whatever approach we take, there is a complete consensus that the tribunal would hold the PCN to be invalid, so I don't think this issue is ever going to arise. One way or the other, either the council cancels the penalty or the tribunal will make them cancel the penalty.

Personally I would not add anything to the draft: If the OP starts arguing over the contravention, the council can immediately start saying "ah ha - you knew what we were on about, so you've not been prejudiced!", of course we know the High Court has ruled that prejudice is irrelevant, but that's an argument we can avoid having in the first place and I think it would be a really bad idea to give them anything to hold onto. We want them to realise it's a lost cause and just cancel it as a processing error.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 08:52) *
It cannot make sense to allege a load of missing content which isn't missing at all because cp
is quoting from the act that doesn't apply.

If the council accepts that the legislation they've quoted on the PCN doesn't apply, they'll have a very hard time arguing the PCN isn't a nullity, that is the logic in my approach. It simply puts them in an impossible position.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 13:38


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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 14:58
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 14:41) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 13:52) *
When we say KISS we haven't really developed the aspect of international debt collection. What would happen to the OP if he ever returns to the UK and tries to rent a vehicle? Is he under any obligation to pay and what recourse does the Council or its agent have in chasing this debt in the USA if he decided not to pay?

Whatever approach we take, there is a complete consensus that the tribunal would hold the PCN to be invalid, so I don't think this issue is ever going to arise. One way or the other, either the council cancels the penalty or the tribunal will make them cancel the penalty.

Personally I would not add anything to the draft: If the OP starts arguing over the contravention, the council can immediately start saying "ah ha - you knew what we were on about, so you've not been prejudiced!", of course we know the High Court has ruled that prejudice is irrelevant, but that's an argument we can avoid having in the first place and I think it would be a really bad idea to give them anything to hold onto. We want them to realise it's a lost cause and just cancel it as a processing error.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 08:52) *
It cannot make sense to allege a load of missing content which isn't missing at all because cp
is quoting from the act that doesn't apply.

If the council accepts that the legislation they've quoted on the PCN doesn't apply, they'll have a very hard time arguing the PCN isn't a nullity, that is the logic in my approach. It simply puts them in an impossible position.


+1 a re issue of a 2003 PCN would be out of time and I dare say duplicitous Argue the contravention and they will reject just on the basis of it, though another point of appeal I don't think it needs to get there


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davesahd
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 00:03
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Well , seems as if there is a bit of a disagreement.
I am going to have to submit something in the next few days, and will make a decision soon about how it should be composed.
Wish me luck, I'll update the thread when I get further communications from them.
Thanks for the advice and helpful info so far
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 08:05
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"there is a complete consensus that the tribunal would hold the PCN to be invalid"

That view is still valid it's just the tactical approach where we differ. Some would like a simple submission others the CP way which spells out why the legislation noted could never apply. Maybe it falls to the OP to make the choice.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 09:56
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The problem with cp's approach is trying to find the 'circle one of the following' to put it under biggrin.gif

IMO, it's so far from a PCN as to justify the simple response:

Thank you for your letter dated ****

I note that you believe this to be a penalty charge notice (as defined and specified under relevant legislation), although even the relevant legislation seems to have confused your client. However, even a cursory look at either the correct legislation or the erroneous one quoted in the letter shows that it either fails to specify or wrongly specifies what is required to such an extent as to render it wholly invalid. I therefore respectfully return it to you.


(Keep a copy)

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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 17:26
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 10:56) *
The problem with cp's approach is trying to find the 'circle one of the following' to put it under biggrin.gif

IMO, it's so far from a PCN as to justify the simple response:

Thank you for your letter dated ****

I note that you believe this to be a penalty charge notice (as defined and specified under relevant legislation), although even the relevant legislation seems to have confused your client. However, even a cursory look at either the correct legislation or the erroneous one quoted in the letter shows that it either fails to specify or wrongly specifies what is required to such an extent as to render it wholly invalid. I therefore respectfully return it to you.


(Keep a copy)

The issue with your simple response is that you're relying on the recipient having an understanding of the legislation they purpose to enforce. My concern is that it would simply result in a stock rejection asserting that the PCN complies with all legal requirements.


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davesahd
post Sat, 21 Sep 2019 - 01:43
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I submitted my representation on 8th April, got an acknowledgement of it's receipt
the next day, but since then I have heard nothing further. Almost 6 months now.
Are things that backed up at Ealing council ?
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cp8759
post Sat, 21 Sep 2019 - 12:50
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After six months the council is going to be in breach of its duty to act fairly and they cannot pursue the matter any further. However it's a good idea to chase up the council and ask what's happened.


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davesahd
post Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 21:04
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 21 Sep 2019 - 04:50) *
After six months the council is going to be in breach of its duty to act fairly and they cannot pursue the matter any further. However it's a good idea to chase up the council and ask what's happened.


I'm not even sure how I would chase them up. I'm in California, I can not find anything promising on the councils site.
If I was in London, I would have been to their location by now in person, but that's not possible

I was hoping they would find in my favour, then I could get my $40 "admin fee" back from EuropCar !
But so far, I've still not heard anything
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 21:11
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Was the question ever asked and answered? Is the PCN in your name and addressed to your address in the USA ?


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davesahd
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 05:01
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 13:11) *
Was the question ever asked and answered? Is the PCN in your name and addressed to your address in the USA ?


Yes eventually (about 8 months after the incident) I received a letter here in my name.

I submitted my representation following their instructions; apparently it's being handled by
an outfit called Euro Parking Collection PLC (www.eplplc.com) and it is at that site that I made
my representation. That was 6 months ago, it's since gone very quiet.

This is the text of their email to me:

Thank you for your communication.

Your case has been placed on hold, pending a review of the circumstances of your representation. This may involve forwarding your case to the relevant authority for a decision.

Our aim is to respond to your query within 28 days, however, please note that the process can take much longer if the case needs to be forwarded to the relevant authority or during busy periods. No further communication is required by you as your case is placed on hold and it will not progress any further, without you being notified. If you do submit a new communication, this will be treated as a new case and the time to handle the case will start from the beginning.

You will be informed as soon as a decision has been made. If your communication relates to any other matter, it will be forwarded to the relevant department.
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cp8759
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 16:09
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To be honest I doubt you'll ever hear from them again, at the end of the day there's nothing they can do to enforce the charge.


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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 16:17
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 17:09) *
To be honest I doubt you'll ever hear from them again, at the end of the day there's nothing they can do to enforce the charge.


+1


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Longtime Lurker
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 20:04
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If you want to force a response, you could make a GDPR request demanding a copy of everything they have on file about you, and follow it up with a demand they correct anything that wrongly indicates they have a case against you, but that is probably overkill.
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davesahd
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 22:18
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 08:09) *
To be honest I doubt you'll ever hear from them again, at the end of the day there's nothing they can do to enforce the charge.


It seems unsatisfying that it ends this way... I was hoping, based on my video, it was found that there was
no left turn, common sense would prevail and my PCN would be withdrawn.

You mentioned that after 6 months the council is in breach of it's duty. Do they have to contact me at all?
It would be nice to have something official to say "case closed"

I still intend to visit the UK in the future as I have family there,
and expect to have to hire a car. Any possible problems ?

If/when I hear from them I'll certainly update the thread here. Thanks everybody
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