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Penalty charge - recent visit to London
davesahd
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 17:59
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I would ask, when is a left turn actually a left turn?

This incident took place on 26th August, but I did not receive any notification until 1st October. It took that long
for the Car Hire place to forward the documents to my residence in California

The PCN is for illegal left turn. I must admit the driving is not particularly elegant; it was due to being in an unfamiliar
area and trying to navigate by a hand-held Sat Nav (phone) controlled by a passenger

For now, I have written to the council asking them to rescind the action since no left turn took place.

Any thoughts?
http://sendvid.com/aut8788z
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post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 17:59
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BaggieBoy
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 18:03
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Press the "Report" button and ask a moderator to move it to the correct forum, i.e. "Council..."
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 18:16
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post up the PCN 99% sure this will be cancelled, just when


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davesahd
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 19:07
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Yes here's the notice.

I just noticed the address on the payment slip. I sent my letter to their council's main address on Uxbridge road
Perhaps I should also send something to the other address?

I can't find any info on their website or on the PCN itself of how to dispute this action.

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Logician
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 19:13
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Para 4 and 5 say how to make representations, which is how you dispute the charge.


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Neil B
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 19:44
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QUOTE (davesahd @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 18:59) *
the Car Hire place to forward the documents to my residence in California

Is this PCN in your name, addressed to you?

Do you have it all; you've only shown the front page?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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davesahd
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 19:48
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I have nothing further from the council except that which I have shown. The other two pages in the letter
are from the car hire company; a cover letter explaining the situation and a bill for 40 UKP for their admin charge.

Seems as if I may be missing something important.

The PCN is not in my name nor is it addressed to me. It was sent to Europcar, the car hire firm.
It's possible that Europcar, by now, may have passed on my details to the council, but I have received
nothing further

This post has been edited by davesahd: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 19:54
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 19:50
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 20:44) *
QUOTE (davesahd @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 18:59) *
the Car Hire place to forward the documents to my residence in California

Is this PCN in your name, addressed to you?

Do you have it all; you've only shown the front page?



good spot. The dates would suggest that it is in the name of the hire co. they are liable but if they do not act in the correct manner and transfer liability they may just charge your CC


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davesahd
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 20:09
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OK. I'll call their customer services tomorrow to find out for sure.

I will ask them about the missing page; seems I'm missing the bit that has details of how to
dispute the PCN

Also the dates - it's way past the 28 days. But I was not aware of this situation until the 28 days had already expired
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Neil B
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 20:21
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QUOTE (davesahd @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 21:09) *
I will ask them about the missing page; seems I'm missing the bit that has details of how to
dispute the PCN

YOU can't dispute anything; you are not liable.

Ask Europcar what they think they are playing at.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 20:31
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It looks like Europcar have paid the PCN, and off-charged to you. There will probably be something in the "small print" of your agreement that allows them to do this. Only a PCN issued to you means you are liable for appeal or paying.
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Neil B
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 20:47
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Show us the covering letter please.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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davesahd
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 21:09
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Here is the letter. When I spoke to them briefly on Monday, they did say they would charge me their admin fee (which they did today)
but that if I successfully disputed the PCN they would refund. That implies that I will somehow get a chance to do so, whether Europcar
will pass my details to the council who will then forward the PCN to me, perhaps resetting the clock? (I'm just thinking out aloud)

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Neil B
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 21:20
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QUOTE (davesahd @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 22:09) *
That implies that I will somehow get a chance to do so, whether Europcar
will pass my details to the council who will then forward the PCN to me, perhaps resetting the clock? (I'm just thinking out aloud)

They've clearly said they have!


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 21:28
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 22:20) *
QUOTE (davesahd @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 22:09) *
That implies that I will somehow get a chance to do so, whether Europcar
will pass my details to the council who will then forward the PCN to me, perhaps resetting the clock? (I'm just thinking out aloud)

They've clearly said they have!


its not just a matter of passing on your name, They have to formally challenge the PCN by way of representations to the council that they are a hire firm and you have signed a hire agreement that accepts liability for the PCN. The council must if they accept then cancel that PCN and are then free to issue another one in your name

Until that happens Eurocar are still liable regardless of what they say.


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davesahd
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 22:08
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Thanks for all the advice. As you say, it is not in my name, I have received nothing from Ealing yet.
I will certainly call Europcar car tomorrow, they have a department for this; I may try calling the council
again, but whether anything can be achieved over the phone, I don't know

I hope Europcar does not just pay the PCN and then charge me, because I believe it could be challenged.
2 or 3 degrees angle to the left constitutes a left turn? Clearly their CCTV snaps the pic was possibly over zealous,
but in all reality, we have got to this point yet.

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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 23:10
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QUOTE (davesahd @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 23:08) *
Thanks for all the advice. As you say, it is not in my name, I have received nothing from Ealing yet.
I will certainly call Europcar car tomorrow, they have a department for this; I may try calling the council
again, but whether anything can be achieved over the phone, I don't know

I hope Europcar does not just pay the PCN and then charge me, because I believe it could be challenged.
2 or 3 degrees angle to the left constitutes a left turn? Clearly their CCTV snaps the pic was possibly over zealous,
but in all reality, we have got to this point yet.


When you contact euro car tell them you have taken advice and it is believed you have very strong grounds for appeal and they must not pay the PCN if it would be their intention to do so and charge you. direct them to this thread if you want

I can supply quite a few adjudications where the appeal has been allowed for the same reason as yours would be appealed but I'm going to bed now so laters


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davesahd
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 18:17
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When they talk about "representations" - what do they mean. Is this producing some evidence to support your challenge?

I called Europcar. My understanding is that they are not going to pay the fine as is implied in their cover letter.
What they are actually doing under the covers to somehow transfer the PCN to me they could not explain the details.

I called Ealing councils number, I can not get past their automated system without knowing a name or extension,
so I was unable to talk to anybody

I will check their website again, the phone messages did say that there is something on there when a dispute can be initiated
I did not see it last time I looked.
https://www.ealing.gov.uk/info/201180/ticke..._contraventions

I am also going to email Europcar to put some of my questions in writing, perhaps I'll find something more concrete that way.

Appreciate all the advice.
Dave
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Neil B
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 19:25
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QUOTE (davesahd @ Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 19:17) *
When they talk about "representations" - what do they mean.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 22:28) *
representations to the council that they are a hire firm and you have signed a hire agreement that accepts liability for the PCN. The council must if they accept then cancel that PCN and are then free to issue another one in your name

At which point Ealing might or might not bother, given your location.

it will be important to onow if they do; we don't want notices going astray.

As a starting point, ask Europcar to notify you if and when their PCN is cancelled.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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davesahd
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 19:34
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Thanks Neil
I'll make certain to ask when I email them later today

I hope it doesn't just die and that I do get a chance to defend it. (assuming I win and it's rescinded)
Otherwise I will not get my 40 UKP "admin" fee back from Europcar

At this point all I can do is wait and watch the mail box
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