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Speed limit on Dual-carriageway with street lights?, A1251, Romford
LotusOne
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 21:27
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Any ideas what the default speed limit is on a dual-carriageway with no speed limit signs (A1251, Romford)?

I seem to recall that there used to be 50mph repeaters in the area but noticed today there are no speed limit signs whatsoever, everything seems to have been removed. Most other dual-carriageways in the area are 50mph unless signs state otherwise.

Just that I noticed what looked like a bunch of police hiding behind a wall along there today and wondered what they were up to.

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post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 21:27
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666
post Mon, 18 Dec 2017 - 16:04
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Mon, 18 Dec 2017 - 15:54) *
QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 18 Dec 2017 - 15:51) *
Thank you. I'd have done it myself if I'd been on a proper computer. I guess I'm iPad- challenged.

Sorry, that comment wasn't meant to be aimed at you, it was for the people who can't Google speed limit laws for themselves and have to be spoon-fed where to look by people such as yourself!

No offence taken, and I share your frustration. Almost as bad as those who ask questions whose answers are in the Highway Code.
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LotusOne
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 12:08
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Dec 2017 - 16:03) *
I've gone back as far as the fifties, but contemporaneous press articles with the introduction of restricted roads in the 1930's made it clear it applied to DC's as well, I can say with confidence the HC has never said anything of the sort and I think Lotus One has had some sort of dodgy regression therapy where they invent your memories for you.

Well it seems I am not the only one who has never heard of these 'Restricted Roads' before, discussed this in the pub last night and almost everyone said the same: that dual-carriageways are 70mph unless with street lights which is then 60mph. The only person with a different answer happened to be a copper and even he still wasn't completely sure, he seemed to think it was down to the spacing of the street lights, if below a certain distance then 30mph else 60mph but didn't know the distance.
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LotusOne
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 12:24
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QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 18 Dec 2017 - 14:57) *
You can read the legislation for yourself - the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, sections 81 and 82.
...

Splendid, it appears it is indeed down to distance between street lights:

a road is a restricted road if:
... lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart;

but that is not all, it can also be a restricted road if:
The traffic authority for a road may direct ... shall become a restricted road for those purposes


So a 60mph dual-carriageway can suddenly become a 30mph dual-carriageway just because the local Council decides so.

Would be good to find out whether there has been any change in 'Restricted Road' designation by the local Council, however I suspect records of this will be kept in Council offices and not likely to be available online or made public anywhere.

This post has been edited by LotusOne: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 12:25
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peterguk
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 12:29
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QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 12:08) *
dual-carriageways are 70mph unless with street lights which is then 60mph.




Does no one read the highway code anymore????


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Fredd
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 12:35
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QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 12:08) *
discussed this in the pub last night and almost everyone said the same: that dual-carriageways are 70mph unless with street lights which is then 60mph.

You seem to drink with a very select group of people who've apparently read the Highway Code since they have a firm opinion on the subject, but remember something it doesn't say and hasn't in living memory.

QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 12:24) *
So a 60mph dual-carriageway can suddenly become a 30mph dual-carriageway just because the local Council decides so.

Ignoring the fact that it would have been a 70mph dual carriageway in the first place unless the council had previously applied a restriction, that's exactly how the speed limit is changed from the default for any normal road.


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The Rookie
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 16:28
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QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 13:08) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Dec 2017 - 16:03) *
I've gone back as far as the fifties, but contemporaneous press articles with the introduction of restricted roads in the 1930's made it clear it applied to DC's as well, I can say with confidence the HC has never said anything of the sort and I think Lotus One has had some sort of dodgy regression therapy where they invent your memories for you.

Well it seems I am not the only one who has never heard of these 'Restricted Roads' before, discussed this in the pub last night and almost everyone said the same: that dual-carriageways are 70mph unless with street lights which is then 60mph. The only person with a different answer happened to be a copper and even he still wasn't completely sure, he seemed to think it was down to the spacing of the street lights, if below a certain distance then 30mph else 60mph but didn't know the distance.

I suspect that pub is adding something to the beer, its never been the case, never been in the HC, but I dare say a bunch of people all chatting may come to that conclusion without referring to any relevant sources of truth.

The copper was right, the lights must be less than 200 yards (183m) apart to qualify as a system of street lighting and thus create a 30 limit, he was wrong in that if they are further apart there is no system, no restricted road and its still 70. I guess he wasn't in traffic!

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Neil B
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 22:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH10Cca0iDg


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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666
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:58
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QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 12:24) *
So a 60mph dual-carriageway can suddenly become a 30mph dual-carriageway just because the local Council decides so.

Would be good to find out whether there has been any change in 'Restricted Road' designation by the local Council, however I suspect records of this will be kept in Council offices and not likely to be available online or made public anywhere.


For a DC to be 60 mph the council must already have acted, otherwise it would be either 70 or 30!

A 60 mph DC, whether with or without lighting, would have repeater signs. If the council decided to make it 30 it would have to pass a Traffic Regulation Order (after due process), change all the terminal signs, and remove or replace all the repeater signs. So hardly sudden.

All such TROs are public documents and are available at the council offices or online.




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andy_foster
post Wed, 20 Dec 2017 - 19:48
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QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:58) *
If the council decided to make [a dual carriageway] 30 it would have to pass a Traffic Regulation Order (after due process), change all the terminal signs, and remove or replace all the repeater signs. So hardly sudden.


Or erect a compliant system of street lighting.


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melloyz
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 21:17
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I still confuse actually especially on the junction. Does it means this shall be 30mph?
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cp8759
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 23:17
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The junction looks like a 30 limit but of course we don't know if there's any NSL repeaters further up the road.

The dual carriageway, you can clearly see a national speed limit repeater under the brown sign that says "P 1 mile", so on that road the limit is 70.


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roythebus
post Thu, 6 Dec 2018 - 19:00
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But to answer the OP, having used the A128 through Romford a number of time recently, coming from the Southend direction and M25, it is NSL until just past the GLA boundary, when it is clearly signed as 50. that drops down to 40 just before the traffic lights past the garage. There is a temporary 30 through the roadworks over the railway bridge.

Going out from London, the A12 is 50 approaching Gallows Corner, drops to 30 at Gallows Corner; over the flyover to the A128 Southend Road is 30 and that is in force until near the GLA boundary when it is 50, then NSL past the GLA boundary. the whole road has a system of street lights and compliant repeater signs where required.
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