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stamfordman
Posted on: Mon, 29 May 2023 - 12:30


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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 13:01) *
I, and others, don't actually care what the police did/didn't do.


Well thanks for that admission. I suggest we leave it there.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1781039 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Mon, 29 May 2023 - 11:42


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Read this:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=147985

and post all the materials blanking only your name and address.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1781032 · Replies: 25 · Views: 1,441

stamfordman
Posted on: Mon, 29 May 2023 - 10:58


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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 11:29) *
I don't see an inquiry being able to say much about the accident.


You may be right but you don't know.



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 11:30) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 10:20) *
And nearly everyone is heaping all the blame on these kids and the father so I don't know where you get the idea that this is one-sided the other way.

Actually outside of this forum, everyone seems to pointing the fingers of blame at the police, there's even been calls from some moderate, well-balanced outlets to overthrow the system.


Blimey, communists want to overthrow capitalism - you're onto something here.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1781029 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Mon, 29 May 2023 - 09:20


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 10:08) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 09:47) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 09:41) *
@stamfordman - you're either trolling, wriggling or have forgotten the tense of the question. here it is again:

'What SHOULD the police HAVE done that they did not, or not do that they did?


So first tell me what the police did and didn't do.


They didn't buy the kids an electric motorbike
They didn't let them go out joyriding on it without safety equipment such as helmets
They may have followed the kids when they spotted them
They didn't chase them up a blocked alleyway
They had lost the kids and broken of any chase, if indeed there was one.
They didn't chase them into a lamp post

Focus on social issues, poor policing generally, anti police feelings in the area but it seems very one sided not to put some of the blame on the kids and family, after all, they were the ones making the poor decisions that directly led to the deaths.


They may have followed? Sorry not good enough. Did they or didn't they? Without information no one can say what they should or shouldn't have done.

Wait for the inquiry. Or can you answer the questions now and then we won't need an inquiry:

- the nature of the police interaction with the two boys prior to the collision and the appropriateness of the police officers’ decisions and actions
- whether at any time the decisions and actions of the officers in the police vehicle constituted a pursuit
- whether the interaction between the police officers and the boys was reported appropriately by the officers prior to and following the collision
- and whether the actions and decisions of South Wales Police over the interaction were in line with legislation, local and national policies and procedures.

And nearly everyone is heaping all the blame on these kids and the father so I don't know where you get the idea that this is one-sided the other way.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1781021 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Mon, 29 May 2023 - 08:47


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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 09:41) *
@stamfordman - you're either trolling, wriggling or have forgotten the tense of the question. here it is again:

'What SHOULD the police HAVE done that they did not, or not do that they did?


So first tell me what the police did and didn't do.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1781018 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Mon, 29 May 2023 - 08:33


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 01:07) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 22:49) *
I did answer his questions


You didn’t.

QUOTE
He knows this so is behaving rather oddly.


Now you’re presuming to tell me what I know? You’re just trolling now.


I'd say you're the troll as you are asking me to comment on something I can't know now but will know when the inquiry is published. This is strange. I will tell you the answers when it's out.

QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 08:59) *
For the record and for comparison


These were 15/16 year old boys. This group of course never does daft things because they are fully mature at that age.



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 00:58) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 29 May 2023 - 00:05) *
Do you know anything about unemployment, crime rates and disadvantaged areas? It doesn't look like it. Let's see your sources.

You've not presented your credentials either as far as I can see?


I've linked to a report on the 2011 riots and to the Independent Office for Police Conduct.

I can produce any number of references about inequalities.

The point is you don't need to be an expert to check facts and report evidence.

At least you didn't even try to answer my question.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1781014 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 23:05


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 23:36) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 26 May 2023 - 20:45) *
I'm sure you're well aware that crime rates are higher in areas of socioeconomic hardship and also higher generally in countries with high inequality. Why do you think this is?

Funnily enough the vast majority of people in areas of socioeconomic hardship manage to be law-abiding, it's always a small minority that causes all the trouble. If you disagree you'd be saying that people in areas of socioeconomic hardship are basically all criminals, and I suspect many people would find that deeply offensive.


Well that's not an answer to the question, which is why rates of inequality locally and nationally correlate with higher crime rates locally and nationally. Why do you think this is?

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 23:53) *
Areas of socioeconomic hardship contain far higher proportions of long term unemployed, many of whom have no respect for the law or others and are quite happy to let the taxpayer look after them. Such people have less compunction about committing crimes and less to lose if they are caught.


Do you know anything about unemployment, crime rates and disadvantaged areas? It doesn't look like it. Let's see your sources.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780987 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 22:22


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That's a ludicrous rejection. I know the area and you got back to City Road using a closer route.

I'd say it's almost certain they won't contest this at the tribunal.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1780983 · Replies: 8 · Views: 587

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 21:49


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QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 22:37) *
yes there should be an enquiry and let's hope its not a woke whitewash of bullish!t.
however you still haven't answered SPs question
and don't appear to appreciate a lighthearted joke


I did answer his questions - we obviously don't know yet but they are the questions that the inquiry by the Independent Office for Police Conduct should answer. He knows this so is behaving rather oddly.

Here it is again:

- the nature of the police interaction with the two boys prior to the collision and the appropriateness of the police officers’ decisions and actions
- whether at any time the decisions and actions of the officers in the police vehicle constituted a pursuit
- whether the interaction between the police officers and the boys was reported appropriately by the officers prior to and following the collision
- and whether the actions and decisions of South Wales Police over the interaction were in line with legislation, local and national policies and procedures.

https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/updat...o-teenagers-ely

You'll have to try harder with making jokes.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780978 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 21:28


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QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 22:18) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 21:51) *
You asked: What should the police have done that they did not, or not do that they did?
My answer was wait for the inquiry - and you'll find out! Patience please.


the enquiry is going to know your answer? blimey psychic powers indeed.



Don't be an idiot. No one knows the answers except the South Wales Police. Let me ask you a question - should there be an inquiry?
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780976 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 21:07


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Yes they will reinstate the discount.

If you post all the materials and provide details asked for we can look at the whether you can pay nothing.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1780969 · Replies: 13 · Views: 419

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 20:51


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 21:30) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 20:52) *
Try asking me again then - what exactly do you want from me? I can't work it out.

I don’t see the point in typing it out again. Scroll back and read it. If you don’t want to provide an answer, just say so.


You asked: What should the police have done that they did not, or not do that they did? This was in the context of my point about the duty of care and the inquiry.

My answer was wait for the inquiry - and you'll find out! Patience please.

  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780964 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 20:43


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Repost it blanking only name and address as per the section read this sticky.

When did you park in the bay and when did you move the car. Did you notice any suspension signs or works.

  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1780962 · Replies: 13 · Views: 419

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 20:02


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Post the PCN - presumably a notice to owner.

  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1780958 · Replies: 13 · Views: 419

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 19:52


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 20:02) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 14:51) *
Are you are asking me to speculate on an event where neither you nor I have the facts?


You have already said that the police appear to be lying, so you’ve already crossed the Rubicon on speculating.

QUOTE
I said there are policies they should have adhered to, which is what you asked.


I’ve stated my question twice. I don’t think your answer addresses it but if you’re sticking with it I guess it is what it is.


They've said the boys were followed by a police vehicle so this doesn't fit their initial story. Did they lie? I only said it appears so.

Try asking me again then - what exactly do you want from me? I can't work it out.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780955 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 16:21


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 16:52) *
After you moved your car, did you take a picture to show that there were no bay markings beneath your car?

If not, go back and get a picture right now, before the council come back and finish painting the bay.

I don't honestly understand MMV Redux's point, if the bay markings and sign were not there at the time when the vehicle was parked, a contravention cannot have occured.


+1 - one cannot be entrapped into a contravention. If my Latin doesn't fail me this is the 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' fallacy - as the disabled marking followed parking on an unmarked kerb, the contravention must have been caused by parking there.

Yes it would be useful to get a pic but not essential.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1780917 · Replies: 25 · Views: 1,211

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 13:51


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 14:32) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 13:34) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 12:46) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 10:30) *
You asked me what the police should or shouldn't have done. My answer was that they should have policies to pursue vulnerable kids (ie without helmets) and it may be found that this was not warranted here. Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear. I suggest you wait for the inquiry.

If that’s your answer, I don’t think it’s a very good one.


It's pretty much the official position after several pursuits ended in deaths of riders. What's your advice to the police?

If my question was about guidance given to the police it would be fine. But I asked what you think the police should have done but did not, or should not have done which they did. It doesn’t answer that question.


Are you are asking me to speculate on an event where neither you nor I have the facts? I said there are policies they should have adhered to, which is what you asked. This is what they should have done. We'll see won't we.

QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 14:00) *
I'm not seeing the loss to society from this event?


Any advance on the scale of callousness from anyone?
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780884 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 12:34


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 12:46) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 10:30) *
You asked me what the police should or shouldn't have done. My answer was that they should have policies to pursue vulnerable kids (ie without helmets) and it may be found that this was not warranted here. Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear. I suggest you wait for the inquiry.

If that’s your answer, I don’t think it’s a very good one.


It's pretty much the official position after several pursuits ended in deaths of riders. What's your advice to the police?

The Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) is investigating:

- the nature of the police interaction with the two boys prior to the collision and the appropriateness of the police officers’ decisions and actions
- whether at any time the decisions and actions of the officers in the police vehicle constituted a pursuit
- whether the interaction between the police officers and the boys was reported appropriately by the officers prior to and following the collision
- and whether the actions and decisions of South Wales Police over the interaction were in line with legislation, local and national policies and procedures.

https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/updat...o-teenagers-ely

This seems reasonable to me.

See also:

https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/guida...ime-more-safely
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780874 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 10:35


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QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 11:17) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 10:30) *
It's as though the debates about stop and search, disproportionate targeting of minorities, police corruption and brutality etc have entirely escaped your attention.


but this isn't about any of that is it!

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 10:30) *
Anyway, all you armchair sociologists think you know better than the experts who've spent a lifetime studying these issues. Don't you ever stop and think?

so which are you? armchair or expert?
I do stop and think. but your recent posts appear to be heavily persuaded towards pro anarchist and also anti police.
you live in London, if the local scallywags were causing havoc around your house what would you like the police to do?


I take it you know all about the disadvantaged areas of South Wales and the trust invested in the South Wales Police. And all from your armchair! That chair of yours must have magic powers.

What you don't seem to realise is that policing does not exist in a vacuum. Read the report I linked to about the 2011 riots.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780868 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 09:43


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 10:19) *
For all the discussion, I still regard it as Darwin in action.


That's grossly offensive. You've better than this I thought.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780858 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 09:30


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 01:03) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 17:48) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 13:47) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 12:41) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 12:35) *
I'll add that the wider context is often oppressive policing in these communities, which is probably the main cause of the riot.


Would you care to elaborate about this oppressive policing which probably caused the riot?

He hasn’t answered my question yet, wait your turn.


I said earlier:

There have been a number of fatalities where the police have chased kids on scooters etc and they should have policies about whether it is fairly safe and warranted to chase and possibly knock them off the scooters, say if they had committed a robbery.

In this case the police appear to have lied about not chasing and there doesn't seem to be any reason why they would put these kids at risk on the estate where they lived. The fact they died on another street is probably not relevant if they thought they were being chased.


I don’t think that answers my questions.


You asked me what the police should or shouldn't have done. My answer was that they should have policies to pursue vulnerable kids (ie without helmets) and it may be found that this was not warranted here. Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear. I suggest you wait for the inquiry.


QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 28 May 2023 - 10:06) *
yes the police are often in the firing line ... but from then I disagree with your statement. overbearing policing is a term to describe the above average policing required to supress excessive crime due to unemployment, poor education, lack of discipline from older generations, etc etc etc.
how exactly is any of that the fault of the police?
it appears you're suggesting that people in this position should...
just be allowed to get on with it.


It's as though the debates about stop and search, disproportionate targeting of minorities, police corruption and brutality etc have entirely escaped your attention.

Anyway, all you armchair sociologists think you know better than the experts who've spent a lifetime studying these issues. Don't you ever stop and think?
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780855 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sat, 27 May 2023 - 16:58


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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 12:41) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 12:35) *
I'll add that the wider context is often oppressive policing in these communities, which is probably the main cause of the riot.


Would you care to elaborate about this oppressive policing which probably caused the riot?


The police are often in the firing line for local discontent in disadvantaged areas because of overbearing policing, and this is exacerbated greatly by long periods of cuts and austerity. I'm sure you are aware of this.

Here's a report that is worth reading:

https://sro.sussex.ac.uk/id/eprint/82292/1/...im%20report.pdf
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780808 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sat, 27 May 2023 - 16:48


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 13:47) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 12:41) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 12:35) *
I'll add that the wider context is often oppressive policing in these communities, which is probably the main cause of the riot.


Would you care to elaborate about this oppressive policing which probably caused the riot?

He hasn’t answered my question yet, wait your turn.


I said earlier:

There have been a number of fatalities where the police have chased kids on scooters etc and they should have policies about whether it is fairly safe and warranted to chase and possibly knock them off the scooters, say if they had committed a robbery.

In this case the police appear to have lied about not chasing and there doesn't seem to be any reason why they would put these kids at risk on the estate where they lived. The fact they died on another street is probably not relevant if they thought they were being chased.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780801 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sat, 27 May 2023 - 11:35


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From: London
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QUOTE (mickR @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 12:21) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 12:15) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 11:58) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 10:49) *
I think the difference between us is that I want policing to exercise a duty of care and this should be be examined in the inquiry both for the day and over time.

What should the police have done that they did not, or not do that they did?


Wait for the inquiry.

I think some of us would like to know what your opinion is if what should have been done as you appear to be criticising what the police are accused of doing


Go back and you can read what I said:

There have been a number of fatalities where the police have chased kids on scooters etc and they should have policies about whether it is fairly safe and warranted to chase and possibly knock them off the scooters, say if they had committed a robbery.

In this case the police appear to have lied about not chasing and there doesn't seem to be any reason why they would put these kids at risk on the estate where they lived. The fact they died on another street is probably not relevant if they thought they were being chased.


I'll add that the wider context is often oppressive policing in these communities, which is probably the main cause of the riot.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780758 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

stamfordman
Posted on: Sat, 27 May 2023 - 11:15


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From: London
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 11:58) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 27 May 2023 - 10:49) *
I think the difference between us is that I want policing to exercise a duty of care and this should be be examined in the inquiry both for the day and over time.

What should the police have done that they did not, or not do that they did?


Wait for the inquiry.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1780751 · Replies: 93 · Views: 5,006

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