Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge, no notice to owner. Options

[Trying2BHonest]

First of all hello everyone.

I am thinking best how to describe this problem. In short:

I have a resident permit for Islington for the IS-E zone. One day I park in what I thought was an IS-E bay, however it was written above it "business bay" or something similar. But there was nothing different with the IS-E sign. And I did not notice when I parked, I simply glanced at the highlighted IS-E label which looked the same as every other IS-E bay sign. Surely they should change the IS-E to IS-E-B? Or something to differentiate it?

This PCN was received on the 23/03/2018
The PCN was appealed on the 6/04/2018 within the 14 days to achieve the discounted amount in case of rejection.

The response to the appeal was given 3 months later on the 9th of July, by which time I had forgotten about it, and the email response had gotten lost under a sleuth of emails and junk mail. However, up until 4 weeks after I went the appeal I had been actively waiting for the response.

Finally I received the order for recovery, the letter came through on the 18th of August 2018, for a total amount to pay of £203. I feel as though this was unfair because no new notice to owner was sent.

Why I say no new notice to owner was sent, is because in between appealing and finally getting a response I did receive 2 notice to owners. But these were before my appeal was responded to at all. The first notice to owner I got, I called up Islington council, and they apologised, and they put it "on hold". Then sometime later I get another notice to owner, and still no response to my appeal. So I called again, and asked why they keep sending me these. They again apologised, and said they could see on the notes that I did appeal, and also mentioned the 1st Notice to Owner. What had happened was it was not put "on hold" properly. After that they said to wait for the response to the appeal.

In that time between the second notice to owner, I waited for a response, which did come on the 9th of July. However by that time I had missed the email (don't ask me how) but it sort of got buried under a lot of other emails.

So I only realised that they responded when I received the Order for recovery, which came in the post on 18th August. At which point I searched through my gmail to find the response. Dated 9th July.

I would have thought its only fair that they said another Notice to Owner out in the mean time? Considering the first 2 weren't supposed to be sent out? Or am I missing something?

I also think its highly unfair, after I chased them for a response for so long, that it gets to this stage, after having caused me stress with 2 "false" NtOs?

I don't even know what I am asking for anymore as I type this, however, I would like to know what are my rights and where I stand in this?

Please ask of me whatever is needed.

Thank you and I appreciated all the help! Thank you, thank you!

11/09/2018 is the date I must pay the total amount or file a statement.

P.S. In the meantime I have sent an email to Islington, and called them up, they simply said to send it in writing.

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[Enceladus]

You shouldn't have two notice to owners for tthe same PCN. Is one in fact a Charge Certificate? Do you have anything in writing to say that they had put the case 'on hold'? If so, please post it up. Trouble is that where an NTO has been served it has to be challenged or paid, even if informal representations are outstanding.

Please post up scrubbed scans of all sides of all pages of the Notice to Owners? It's only necessary to obscure your name & address, the vehicle reg and the PCN number. Please leave everything else visible especially all dates, times and locations.

And what dates are on the Order for Recovery? We need to work out what grounds you may be able to submit a Witness Statement.

[Trying2BHonest]

You shouldn't have two notice to owners for tthe same PCN. Is one in fact a Charge Certificate? Do you have anything in writing to say that they had put the case 'on hold'? If so, please post it up. Trouble is that where an NTO has been served it has to be challenged or paid, even if informal representations are outstanding.

Please post up scrubbed scans of all sides of all pages of the Notice to Owners? It's only necessary to obscure your name & address, the vehicle reg and the PCN number. Please leave everything else visible especially all dates, times and locations.

And what dates are on the Order for Recovery? We need to work out what grounds you may be able to submit a Witness Statement.

Dear Enceladus,

First of all, very sorry for the late reply, I was busy with my daughter, and then I spent 3 days looking for the original NTO. You are right, one of them is a Charge Certificate.

Unfortunately, I do not have anything in writing to say that they have put the Charge Certificate on hold, however, it seems when I called the operator was able to see the notes put on file about it being hold, maybe there is someway for them to pass them notes over to me?

As requested I have scanned and scrubbed the documents.

Notice to Owner


Charge Certificate


Order of Recovery


Just to clarify I DO have a Zone E permit for Islington. Its all electronic now, as I am sure you're more than aware. Just the business holders only bit caught me off guard.



Ps. I saw the attachment bit after writing this post and uploading to Photobucket.

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[Enceladus]

You have posted an Order for Recovery, three copies. At least I hops it's three copies of the same OfR and not three separate OfRs. So your case has progressed to the next stage. The only available options are to pay the £208 or to submit the Witness Statement which is attached to the OfR.

However you can only submit on one of the stated grounds. You did receive the Notice to Owner, you've posted it here, so you can't claim that ground. Strictly speaking you didn't challenge the NTO by submitting formal representations against it. The PCN told you that if an NTO was served then you had to respond. The remaining two grounds don't apply to your case.

Do you have the name of the person you spoke to on the 26th of April, the person that told you the PCN was on-hold pending a decision on your informal representation against the original PCN?

[Trying2BHonest]

You have posted an Order for Recovery, three copies. At least I hops it's three copies of the same OfR and not three separate OfRs. So your case has progressed to the next stage. The only available options are to pay the £208 or to submit the Witness Statement which is attached to the OfR.

However you can only submit on one of the stated grounds. You did receive the Notice to Owner, you've posted it here, so you can't claim that ground. Strictly speaking you didn't challenge the NTO by submitting formal representations against it. The PCN told you that if an NTO was served then you had to respond. The remaining two grounds don't apply to your case.

Do you have the name of the person you spoke to on the 26th of April, the person that told you the PCN was on-hold pending a decision on your informal representation against the original PCN?

Thank you once again for the promptness.

All three images posted are for the same PCN number. I was not sure whether to keep that in there or not.

Unfortunately I did not get the name of the person I spoke to at the time. However, I have just called before this post, to get an update. And they see within the notes that I did contact them on several occasions, and there was mention of the PCN being put "on hold".

He also mentioned that the charge certificate is also currently "on hold" because I emailed them about it with my grievances.

I asked if he could send me anything in writing to confirm this, he said he could not, but would add a note to the file about what we just spoke about.

I mentioned the fact that the last date to pay it is 11/09/2018, and that I fear not receiving a reply before that date, considering it has been 11 days already since I sent the email. He said not to worry it is on hold, and to wait for a reply, or pay the £203 if I wanted to.

Where do I go from here then?

[Neil B]

On hold pending what? That's something of an incomplete conversation.

Perhaps you should write/e-mail to the Manager to explain what you are claiming happened.

--
The relevant Regulation seems to put you entirely at fault otherwise >

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

[hcandersen]

You must action the OfR by 11 Sept.

Procedurally you’ve goofed, but if, as you say, the authority appear to accept that they’re partly responsible by giving you the impression that the PCN was ‘on hold’, which you took to mean that the enforcement process was on hold, then I suggest you make representations. The reasons for this are as follows:

The process is that they:
May issue a CC if reps have not been made within the 28-day period, and
May disregard reps made after the end of this period.

IMO, in order for the latter not to be redundant it must mean that reps may be made at any time, even after a CC and OfR have been issued. If, as you say, they accept some responsibility for the current situation, then the following would apply:

If they issued a NOR, you may appeal to the adjudicator;
If they disregarded, then you (having confirmed this before 11 Sept) must decide what to do with the OfR.

Any reps should as a preamble apologise for being late, explain why and state that lateness, even after a CC and OfR have been issued, does not prevent the authority from considering them.

I cannot see any other avenue open to you other than to submit the WS now under the grounds of made representations etc, in this case your telephone conversation after receiving the NTO counting as reps. The problem with this as I see it is that the NTO probably makes it clear that reps must be made in writing - but we wouldn’t know because you haven’t posted the full NTO!

[Trying2BHonest]

@hcanderson

Sorry I will post full NTO in a moment.

The reason I did nothing with the NtO is because after my conversation with Islington, I was told that I could ignore it. Which I did.

Will appealing to the adjudicator give me a response before 11 sept? Or does it not matter then?

[hcandersen]

You misunderstand.

You have an OfR. This requires you to pay or submit a WS.

But as things stand, it is questionable whether it would be lawful for you to submit the WS as you appear to have no grounds. If you did then the authority would ultimately have to refer the matter to the adj. But this would not guarantee you an appeal. If the authority referred the matter and added that you did not and that you know that you did not submit reps then the adj would be likely to write to you. If they were not satisfied with your answer then they would not register your appeal.

My suggestion is an attempt to get you back into the enforcement and appeals process.

And the clock’s ticking.

You say you’ve contacted the authority already, so submit reps and follow up with an email and phone call asking for a decision, based on the peculiar facts of your case, by 9 Sept.

[Trying2BHonest]

@hcanderson.

Thank you for your response. You're right the clock is ticking, and it's stressing me out so much!

I just wanted to clarify when you say submit reps, how exactly do I do that? Do you mean send in the WS? Or to submit reps via email, which is the way you would normally submit reps with Islington if this was a fresh PCN.

Should it be informal or formal representation? I do not even know how to submit formal representation.

I am very sorry, I reread your post a few times, but it is still confusing to me.

Thank you!

[hcandersen]

You had a NTO.

You are making formal reps as described in the NTO in any of the ways permitted - I can’t tell, you’ve only posted the first page.

Nothing to do with the WS.

The law allows the authority to disregard reps made outside the 28-day period - and that ended ages ago- but does not require them to do so. You make reps as you argued in your initial challenge but add what I suggested because you just want them to serve a NOR which then allows you to appeal. On the other hand they might feel that because they’ve already issued a CC and OfR, it’s too late.

Whatever happens and even if they disregard they should respond.

But whatever happens you need this before 11th and you’re running out of time.

[Bstearman]

Hello to both of you,

I am essentially in the same boat as you Trying2BHonest.
I ignored my NTOs and lost the right to appeal. I was sent a OfR yesterday.

The only difference is, I do not own the car in question, the Cardiff Council are charging me by mistake. Long story here, if you want to know the specifics, see the thread I started.

I can’t file a statement since I do not fulfil any of the stated grounds.

I’m hoping that a letter to the council along with a bank statement showing a refund of the vehicle will sort this out.

Sorry for partially hijacking this thread..

[Trying2BHonest]

You had a NTO.

You are making formal reps as described in the NTO in any of the ways permitted - I can’t tell, you’ve only posted the first page.

Nothing to do with the WS.

The law allows the authority to disregard reps made outside the 28-day period - and that ended ages ago- but does not require them to do so. You make reps as you argued in your initial challenge but add what I suggested because you just want them to serve a NOR which then allows you to appeal. On the other hand they might feel that because they’ve already issued a CC and OfR, it’s too late.

Whatever happens and even if they disregard they should respond.

But whatever happens you need this before 11th and you’re running out of time.

Sorry for the late response.

Here is the rest of the NtO, which I was supposed to do yesterday, but I don't find myself near the computer all that often.

Thank you.

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[hcandersen]

Submit your reps by email as permitted.

If you don’t find yourself near a computer often than I could see this ending in tears.

[Trying2BHonest]

@hcanderson

I have written out my representation and an Out of Time Statutory declaration.

Should I post here to be reviewed first?

[Neil B]

and an Out of Time Statutory declaration.

Where have you got that idea from?

[hcandersen]

Forget WS, you are makng reps to the authority, TEC are not in the centre of the picture, yet, but they are getting ever closer as the clock ticks.

[Trying2BHonest]

Should I post what I have written as my rep here first? Or it doesn't matter and simply send it in?

[hcandersen]

It’s a Sunday, no-one’s in at the council so use the time to post here.

[Trying2BHonest]

Hello everyone.

Right so I am posting this as an update, because I always hate it when a thread fizzles out and you never know the ending.

I finally received a reply the other day, after waiting what felt like ages.

The PCN couldn't be reverted back to its initial stage but I have been given until 9th October to pay at a lower price of £73. Which is much better than the 200+ they were asking for.

Any further appeals should be made to TEC and not to Islington.

Should I pay? Hmm.

Thank you all for the help and advice.