PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN for not parking in bay. But no signage on any penalty.
Shoodie
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 23:06
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



So I parked up in a back yard area of my town where there are some bays reserved for contractors. I noticed there are no signs to say that I cannot park outside the bays and no notice to say what the penalty would be if I did. There was a large 'NO PARKING' printed on the ground but there were no indicators to show where that restriction applied. My wheels were not touching the letters.

When I returned to my car, Spelthorne Borough Council had stuck a PCN on my windscreen stating that I had 'Parked beyond the bay markings' and want to fine me £50. There was nothing in the vicinity of my car that warned me what the fine would be prior to receiving this parking ticket.

Where do I stand?

Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 34)
Advertisement
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 23:06
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:19
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Upload to imgur.com and post a link. Have you had a notice to owner?


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shoodie
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:49
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:19) *
Upload to imgur.com and post a link. Have you had a notice to owner?

Thanks very much. Here's their response letter (1 link per page):
https://i.imgur.com/NO8hATD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fQR2Wcv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ijmrN1P.jpg

Yes the notice to owner has been received. Formal representations need to be submitted by 22nd August.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:57
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



So you have to decide whether to take it all the way on signage (and hope they might mess up the process and commit a procedural impropriety), or pay the discount.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shoodie
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:04
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



So are you saying they are legally compliant in ticketing me where the restriction sign was situated some 50 yards down the road? I thought there was something in law to say that signage needs to be easily visible from the proximity of the parked vehicle?? At least that was what I was banking on because I genuinely did not know I was breaching any restriction where I parked.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:25
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Shoodie @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 21:04) *
So are you saying they are legally compliant in ticketing me where the restriction sign was situated some 50 yards down the road? I thought there was something in law to say that signage needs to be easily visible from the proximity of the parked vehicle?? At least that was what I was banking on because I genuinely did not know I was breaching any restriction where I parked.

I don't know the location and I don't know where the signs are, or how clear they are. This is why I mean it is your decision, if you think you can persuade an impartial and dispassionate adjudicator that the signage was inadequate, then go for it.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shoodie
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:46
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



Ah on that note let me repost the Google streetview location:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Elmslei...33;4d-0.5107496

Now if you look to the right, you'll see a white car. My car was parked on the other side of it (see the earlier pic in this thread to cross ref).

Look to the far left (down the road) and you can just make out the black pay and display machine, just left of the grey BMW (yes it's pretty far). Just behind there is the Elmsleigh Road Car Park sign. So in principle, isn't that just too far? I mean there is a building that cuts off that area to the area I was parked in. There were no local authority parking restriction signs in my area. You can see that from the Google streetview.

So I guess my question is how far does a car park sign need to be to make it 'too far'? Any guidance on that? Only then will I know what chance I have of appealing.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 01:22
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Shoodie @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:46) *
Ah on that note let me repost the Google streetview location:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Elmslei...33;4d-0.5107496

Now if you look to the right, you'll see a white car. My car was parked on the other side of it (see the earlier pic in this thread to cross ref).

Look to the far left (down the road) and you can just make out the black pay and display machine, just left of the grey BMW (yes it's pretty far). Just behind there is the Elmsleigh Road Car Park sign. So in principle, isn't that just too far? I mean there is a building that cuts off that area to the area I was parked in. There were no local authority parking restriction signs in my area. You can see that from the Google streetview.

So I guess my question is how far does a car park sign need to be to make it 'too far'? Any guidance on that? Only then will I know what chance I have of appealing.


you have asked the question. The only person that can give you an answer is an adjudicator. 50/50 IMO


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 08:22
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,059
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



OP, pl stop this.

For all I know you’re out of time to make reps.

You’ve not posted the NTO or told us its date of issue, you’ve then calculated the last day of the 28-day window.

OPs often miscount.

Date NTO was issued?????
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shoodie
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 20:54
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 09:22) *
OP, pl stop this.


Please stop what? Asking for help? I thought that's what this forum was for.

Date of this Notice to Owner and date of posting: 25/07/2018

They take the NTO to have been served the second working day after that date - so 27/07/2018. 28 days from then is 24/08/2018.

So I still have a couple of days. The ticket warden accused me of parking incorrectly and I'm here to get ammo to fight back. Support me, great. But let's not pile on further accusations that I can't read dates right smile.gif I really don't want to waste ppl's time.

All I seek are the requirements for how local authorities should set up signage around their car parks. I thought such documentation would be easy to find and yet I've searched for it and even no one on here seems to know. When it comes to private parking agents, the internet is rife with what the signage should say and the criteria around their positioning. I started this thread assuming the same applies to councils but no one has suggested such a thing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shoodie
post Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 15:55
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



I have appealed so will let you all know what happens. Thanks for all your help. Without you we would cave in biggrin.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shoodie
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 11:40
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



Here's their letter of rejection to my appeal:

Notice of Rejection of Representations. Your case comes under the Traffic Management Act 2004
Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number: xxxxxxxxxx Date of contravention: 16 June 2018
Location: Elmsleigh Road Car Park
Vehicle registration: xxxxxxx
Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice.
You were given a Penalty Charge Notice because part of your vehicle was outside the white lines of the parking bay. You are not allowed to park like this even if you have paid to park, are displaying an item correctly (for example a permit, Pay & Display ticket or disabled badge) or other cars have not left you enough room. Although one incorrectly parked car can make the next space too small for anyone else to use, we enforce the rule across both spaces. We do this to stop a knock-on effect of further cars parking incorrectly, reducing the available parking space even more.
The following photos help to show why your Penalty Charge Notice was given. (same photos as I've already share on this forum)

The area you had parked is part of Elmsleigh Road Car Park. The building you have mentioned does not mean the car park stops.
As you enter Elmsleigh Road there are two pay and display notices on the left and on the right informing drivers this is a pay and display car park (Elmsleigh Road Car Park) and informing drivers of the penalties that may occur.
There are also signs located above each parking bay informing drivers they are Contract Permit bays.
Some areas of the car park have chevrons with No Parking road marking and some do not have chevrons. This does not mean parking is permitted when chevrons are not covering the No Parking road markings.
The area you were parked does not permit parking. There is a No Parking road marking informing drivers parking is not permitted in this area.
I can see from the pictures provided by the Civil Enforcement Officer there is a sign located next to your vehicle informing drivers the parking bays are for contract permit holders only.
There is clear signage on entering Elmsleigh Road Car Park informing drivers this is a pay and display car park and contract permit holders parking bays.
There are also clear road markings informing drivers where parking is not permitted.
I can see from the pictures provided by the Civil Enforcement Officer you were parked in an area where all signage is clear for you to see.
You have 28 days from the date of this letter being served (delivered) to:
• pay £50.00; or
• appeal to the Parking Adjudicator by following the instructions below using PIN
number xxxxxx. The Adjudicator can ask one side to pay costs if he or she believes, for example, that they have been wholly unreasonable. However, the Adjudicator rarely asks either side to pay costs. The Adjudicator is independent and both sides must accept the Adjudicator's decision.
If you do nothing
If, after 28 days, you have taken no action, we may send you a Charge Certificate increasing the charge from £50.00 to £75.00. You will then have 14 days to pay the increased charge. If, after the 14 days, you have not paid the increased charge, we may apply to the County Court to recover the money - plus court costs - from you.
How to pay
• online www.spelthorne.gov.uk/payments. Please select Penalty Charge Notice.
• By phone Credit/Debit card payments 01784 451499.
Automated payment line 01784 444220(24 hours/7 days a week). Please have vehicle and PCN number ready.
• In post Send to Cashiers Section, Spelthorne Borough Council, PO Box 290, Staines, Middlesex, TW18 1UX. Allow 2 working days for 1st class post and 5 days for 2nd class post.
Yours sincerely
Kate Weedon Parking Administrator


Any thoughts?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shoodie
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 22:26
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



Oh and it was served by email.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shoodie
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 22:52
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



And just for reference, this is the letter I formally appealed with:

For this representation I attach 4 photographs:

Elmsleigh Road Car Park aerial view.jpg
https://imgur.com/oXIWSHL

Entrance to Area2.jpg
https://imgur.com/ermIygy

Area2.jpg
https://imgur.com/6fjt8oI

My parked car.jpg
(this is the first pic I posted at the top of this thread)

Dear Sir/Madam

I genuinely did not believe I was contravening any parking restriction when I parked my car.

The PCN issued states that the contravention took place in Elmsleigh Road Car Park.

Photograph ‘Elmsleigh Road Car Park aerial view.jpg’ shows where the sign for Elmsleigh Road Car Park is. I have named this Area1. It also shows where I parked my car. I have named this Area2.

Area1 and Area2 do not seem to be part of the same parking area because they are separated by a building. I have also marked this.

The distance between where I parked my car in Area2 and the Elmsleigh Road Car Park sign in Area1 is approximately 60 meters.

Photographs ‘Entrance to Area2.jpg’ and ‘Area2.jpg’ show street views of Area2. They show ‘NO PARKING’ road markings but some have chevrons marking the areas of their extent. Others do not.

There are no ‘Elmsleigh Road Car Park’ signs when entering Area2 showing that this also a part of Elmsleigh Road Car Park and the restrictions and penalties enforced in this area.

Photograph ‘My parked car.jpg’ shows where my car was parked.

It is not parked on the ‘NO PARKING’ road marking, nor on any of the chevrons where they are defined as ‘NO PARKING’ areas. The tarmac where I have parked has no markings on it whatsoever.

There are no signs above my car to indicate there is any restriction there.

The law states that any parking enforcement must show clear signage on entering the area where the enforcement applies.

No such signage is visible. On entering Area2, the sign for ‘Elmsleigh Road Car Park’ is approximately 50 meters earlier on that one-way street and could not be reasonably expected to apply to Area2.

The law also states that clear signage must be visible from where the vehicle is parked to show restrictions apply.

No such signage applicable to that position of parking is visible. The Elmsleigh Road Car Park sign is 60 meters away from that position, not visible from that position, and legally too far to be deemed enforceable in Area2.

I therefore request that you consider these points and consider cancelling my ticket on those grounds.

Yours sincerely


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 16:58
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Well as they've not re-offered the discount there's nothing to lose in taking it to the tribunal.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shoodie
post Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 19:16
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 65
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,566



Yep and that is exactly what I've done. I'll let you know how it plays out.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 15:45
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here