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Incorrect SJP issued, after after posting,phoning and emailing in S172, Incorrect SJP issued, after after posting,phoning and emailing in S172
MessiBarca
post Mon, 7 May 2018 - 20:39
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Hi guys

I really need your help. I've received a SJPN dated 20/04/2018. I need to respond to them by 11/05/2018 which doesn't leave me much time

I was the named driver of a vehicle that was caught speeding by a "home office type approved device" on a dual carriage way in Lancashire on 06/08/2017 travelling at 61 on a 50mph zone.

The alleged speeding offence occurred on 6th August 2017 - over 6 months ago? Is this of any relevance in my case as I have read mixed reviews on this in the last couple of hours?!

Anyway the following took place

• A S172/NIP was sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle (my mother) on 11th August 2017.

• This was followed by a reminder letter to my mother which arrived on 4/09/2017 but the actual latter was dated for the day before 03/09/17, this letter requested details of the driver at the time of the alleged offence.

• On 11/09/ 2017, I the registered keeper’s son, PHONED the Lancashire CPU advising that the original S172 had already been returned by post. They stated they had not been received the original and asked I send in the reminder. I asked whether this reminder S172 reminder could be sent by email as well to avoid any mailing issues; they stated it would need to be a document via post.

This time I took a photo of the 03/09/2017 S172 reminder before posting back (which nominated me, the son as the driver). Don't have a photo of the original s172 sent to my mother

•I PHONED the Lancashire CPU again on 26/09/2017 asking if they had received and explained this nomination had already been posted by my mother to them. They said it hadn't yet been received to so I took the email address of the lady officer I was speaking with and said to email it her and she said she would make a note on the system of this, and would note that I had phoned in to check and also of my admission I was the driver and the reminder S172 has still hasn't been received by them

• On 27/11/ 2017, the day after my phone call, they finally received the completed S172 reminder nominating me (the son) as the driver and on the same date a new S172/NIP was sent to me dated 27/09/17

•This S172/NIP was completed by me and posted on 10/10/17.

• On 19/10/ 2017 I received a reminder letter stating that no reply to the previous S172 and that a response is required within 7 days and to advise the department immediately if you have already responded - however the first S172 in my name had already been posted to them by this date on 10/10/17

•on 30/10/17 I emailed the CPU lady officer a copy of this original s172 for their information and explained I had posted this very same document already on 10/10/17

• the next day 31/10/2017, the CPU lady officer acknowledged (by an email reply) that the copy and my admission of the completed reminder but advised that this could NOT be accepted by email and that I needed to return the reminder S172 now as well

•on 01/11/2017 - reminder s172 completed and posted back.

• Just to be sure they received the s172, I emailed again on 09/11/17 enquiring whether if this had been received but was told it hadn't been received again! They asked when it had been posted and if anything else was inside the envelope.

• I waited a few days and emailed again on 15/11/ 2017 to check asking for an update, explained nothing was in the envelope but did NOT receive any reply of any sorts from the CPU lady officer

*regrettably I didn't send the s172 documents back with special or signed for delivery - from what I can recollect it was a second class stamp and I think I got proof of postage but I can't find them as it's been over 6 months *

• After this I received the SJPN in the post dated 20/04/18 stating ONE CHARGE " 1. Fail to give information relating to the ID of the driver / rider of a vehicle when required" - NO OTHER charges are listed

Please advice on how best to deal with this as the initial charge in my opinion is incorrect? It should be for speeding only.

If it goes to court am I likely to win? What are the additional charges for going to court? And how much more will it be if I lose? I'm not even sure if I'll be able to get the time off to attend a day in court? Is it a full day thing? Do we have any say on the day it occurs?

If I did plead guilty to this failing to provide ID charge on the SJPN, what's the best and worst outcome? How many points and financially how much will I get penalised approximately? As I only work part time.

I was really annoyed at receiving the SJPN especially considering the number of emails I sent so I managed to phone the CPU and get the name of the of the CPU manager. I googled her name and found the email address. I put in a written lengthy complaint explaining the above, that it was a failure on their part in receiving the posted S172s and their failure to acknowledge my S172 emails containing this my admission as an attachment was no fault of my own. I concluded the email with "With the above proofs in mind, can you cancel the incorrect single justice procedure notice with immediate effect? My admissions and emails from September to November 2017 clearly absolve me of the 'failing to provide information of the ID of the driver' charge putforth against me, when it is clearly present as an email attachment. Your failure to acknowledge my S172 admission letter and actually respond to my 15/11/2017 email with no reply of any sort is no fault of my own.

Section 5 of the 'Penalty notices – fixed penalty notices and penalty notices for disorder' from the Magistrates Sentencing Council states "where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed."

With the above proofs in mind, I would therefore ask you cancel the incorrect single justice procedure notice with immediate effect and given my s172 admission letter and ask the fine be given at the statutory Fixed Penalty Notice level of £100, as should have originally occurred.
I look forward to hearing from you promptly"

The CPU manager replied stating the charge will stand and the CPU are not at fault and it was my fault?! I quote "My conclusion is that it is due to your failure to provide the information in accordance with the reasonable instructions outlined on the S172 request and within the statutory timescales, which has resulted in the case proceeding to the issue of the SJP and as such, putting the Police to cost. For the above reason, the SJP notice will not be cancelled and will proceed to a court hearing. Please clearly respond to the SJP notice indicating your plea to the offence charged.

Alternatively, if you wish to formally admit to the speeding offence; the Magistrates’ can, in certain circumstances, amend the charge to that of speeding, however they will require this request in writing. However, regardless of how this case is dealt with, the Police will be making an application for a costs award at the conclusion of your case as there has been no error on their part."

I've responded asking her to clarify a few points in her email but I do not have the luxury of time to wait for a response as I need to submit the form back to them by 10/05/18 at the VERY LATEST so it reaches there on day 21 on 11/05/18.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated

This post has been edited by MessiBarca: Wed, 9 May 2018 - 09:05
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post Mon, 7 May 2018 - 20:39
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 17:26
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 16:47) *
You don't have to put anything, but "the driver was nominated" will be enough if you want to put something.

Nothing will be looked at by the court until the trial date in any case so little point in adding more.

As there is no speeding charge, the stuff about the fixed penalty equivalent is irrelevant.

You have a choice of defending the s172 charge, which you seem to have a potential defence for, in which case the speeding is not an issue at all .... or you can do a deal at court to get speeding added as an alternative charge for you to plead guilty to, and the s172 gets dropped (if the CPS agree). The deal needs to be done on the court day by discussion with the prosecutor, its not going to happen before that.

Sometimes less is more: Your defence is that the driver was nominated, so there's no point in writing war and peace about mostly irrelevant matters. The key thing with a case like this is making sure you have all your evidence in order for the court hearing. If you have the evidence you say you have, I wouldn't even contemplate asking to plead guilty to a speeding charge, that would be snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 17:27


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MessiBarca
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 18:34
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Thank you when you say.... Simply submitting a not guilty plea will refer the matter to a court hearing anyway. Alternatively, you can simply 'reject' the SJPN and explicitly ask for the matter to be heard at court.

The part "Alternatively, you can simply 'reject' the SJPN and explicitly ask for the matter to be heard at court." How would I "reject" the SJPN in real terms? And ask for a court hearing
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Jlc
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 18:54
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Write to the court - simply that you do not desire the Single Justice Procedure. (s. 16A(1)(d) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 18:54


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MessiBarca
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 20:27
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 19:54) *
Write to the court - simply that you do not desire the Single Justice Procedure. (s. 16A(1)(d) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980)



Hi, thanks I assume this approach amounts to the same as pleading ‘not guilty’ on the SJPN Ie. Same end result? So is there any benefit in taking this approach of writing to the court as opposed to pleading not guilty?

In your opinion, for the "I am not guilty" and "prosecution witness statement" -objections to the witness statement. Should I leave both these boxes near empty as has been suggested, or should I include what I've already put on here in my defence?

This post has been edited by MessiBarca: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 20:46
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:01
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:27) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 19:54) *
Write to the court - simply that you do not desire the Single Justice Procedure. (s. 16A(1)(d) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980)



Hi, thanks I assume this approach amounts to the same as pleading ‘not guilty’ on the SJPN Ie. Same end result? So is there any benefit in taking this approach of writing to the court as opposed to pleading not guilty?

In your opinion, for the "I am not guilty" and "prosecution witness statement" -objections to the witness statement. Should I leave both these boxes near empty as has been suggested, or should I include what I've already put on here in my defence?

In terms of approach it's much of a muchness. The key issue is that by objecting to the prosecution witness statement, you are putting the prosecution and the court on notice that you require the prosecution witness to turn up and give evidence in person. You can then put all the relevant questions to the witness in cross examination, at which point what you put on the form becomes largely irrelevant. The form is designed to allow the court and the CPS to identify the issues in the case (i.e. what you dispute about the CPS's case), it is not the place for you to make detailed submission as to what your defence is.


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MessiBarca
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:06
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:01) *
QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:27) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 19:54) *
Write to the court - simply that you do not desire the Single Justice Procedure. (s. 16A(1)(d) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980)



Hi, thanks I assume this approach amounts to the same as pleading ‘not guilty’ on the SJPN Ie. Same end result? So is there any benefit in taking this approach of writing to the court as opposed to pleading not guilty?

In your opinion, for the "I am not guilty" and "prosecution witness statement" -objections to the witness statement. Should I leave both these boxes near empty as has been suggested, or should I include what I've already put on here in my defence?

In terms of approach it's much of a muchness. The key issue is that by objecting to the prosecution witness statement, you are putting the prosecution and the court on notice that you require the prosecution witness to turn up and give evidence in person. You can then put all the relevant questions to the witness in cross examination, at which point what you put on the form becomes largely irrelevant. The form is designed to allow the court and the CPS to identify the issues in the case (i.e. what you dispute about the CPS's case), it is not the place for you to make detailed submission as to what your defence is.


Many thanks makes sense but given the fact I've already spent the time writing it out now I am inclined to try and include some of it... with this in mind, how would you trim it down? What would you include/remove in your esteemed opinions? I've got to submit the form off tomorrow so a little stressed about it as it's playing on my mind
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southpaw82
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:14
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Why? Nobody will care if you wax lyrical on the form.


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MessiBarca
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:16
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 18:26) *
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 16:47) *
You don't have to put anything, but "the driver was nominated" will be enough if you want to put something.

Nothing will be looked at by the court until the trial date in any case so little point in adding more.

As there is no speeding charge, the stuff about the fixed penalty equivalent is irrelevant.

You have a choice of defending the s172 charge, which you seem to have a potential defence for, in which case the speeding is not an issue at all .... or you can do a deal at court to get speeding added as an alternative charge for you to plead guilty to, and the s172 gets dropped (if the CPS agree). The deal needs to be done on the court day by discussion with the prosecutor, its not going to happen before that.

Sometimes less is more: Your defence is that the driver was nominated, so there's no point in writing war and peace about mostly irrelevant matters. The key thing with a case like this is making sure you have all your evidence in order for the court hearing. If you have the evidence you say you have, I wouldn't even contemplate asking to plead guilty to a speeding charge, that would be snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.


I certainly hope so although based on other posts I've read in relation to the S172 charge I've been given and CPS I'm not quiet so confident.

FYI this is the email thread sent with the dates:

Sent: 30 October 2017 22:55
To: X
Subject: Driver information

Hello

Further to our previous conversation I had sent a reply letter on dated 10/10/17 but this doesn't seem to have reached yourselves via Royal Mail, as I have now received a further reminder letter for driver information.

As requested at the time, I have attached the photo taken at the time of posting for your convenience which outlines my details.

Regards
Me

___________
On 31 Oct 2017, at 08:24, wrote:

Good Morning,

Thank you for your email concerning your S172 admission.

I have noted your comments that the document was posted back to Central Processing on 10th October 2017. However, this has not been received. As the section 172 is a legal document we are unable to accept your admission from the photograph. I must therefore ask you to complete the reminder letter you have received.

Regards
Lady copper

_____________
Sent: 09 November 2017 12:38
To: lady copper
Subject: Re: Driver information

Hello

Have you received the document attached?

Kind regards
Me

____________

On 9 Nov 2017, at 13:39, lady copper wrote:

Good Afternoon ,

Re PENTIP 00000....

Please advise when you posted the document to us and if there is anything else in the envelope with it.

Regards

Lady copper

__________

Date: 15 November 2017 at 15:53:36 GMT
To: "lady copper @lancashire.pnn.police.uk>
Subject: Re: Driver information

Hello

It's been at least a fortnight. Nothing additional

Any update?

Regards

________

That's the last of it I got no reply to this email and received the SJPN in the post dated 20/04/18. please read this email thread in conjunction with the dates I stated when presenting the case for the overall picture... Does anything change in your guys option after reading the thread? The S172 was unequivocally signed attached and dated on the first email I sent her on 30/10/17.

I emailed the CPU manager with a formal complaint after phoning in as to why I received an incorrect SJP charge and the conclusion of her response is in my introduction

This post has been edited by MessiBarca: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 23:36
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Irksome
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:59
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You are in the 'system' now ... play it by the book as suggested here and I think (as a laymen) that you may well succeed if you choose to reject the SJP and plead NG at court.


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You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already.
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:30
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:06) *
Many thanks makes sense but given the fact I've already spent the time writing it out now I am inclined to try and include some of it... with this in mind, how would you trim it down? What would you include/remove in your esteemed opinions? I've got to submit the form off tomorrow so a little stressed about it as it's playing on my mind

Save it for your trial, that's what really counts. What you've drafted won't go to waste unless they drop the case first.

QUOTE
As the section 172 is a legal document we are unable to accept your admission from the photograph.

As per the comment I made earlier today (don't remember which thread), police officers don't know the law and just go by what their superiors have told them. Unless we've landed in some dystopian FMOTL universe, there is no need for a "wet ink signature" and unless/until a court makes a ruling to that effect, there is actually no reason why a scanned s172 response can't be accepted, provided it is otherwise in order.

Having said that, did you get a free certificate of posting when you posted the responses?


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MessiBarca
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:38
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I also need advice on the "statement of means" some of the info is quiet personal and having read other posts all day I'm still unsure on how much detail to go in to. For example do you have to state the exact occupation?

NI number - not even sure I remember this anymore?! Why would they need that? Can I leave this blank or do I have to find it?

It says "supply any documentary evidence which supports the info. you have provided"
Should I attach a pay slip? Council tax payment proof? Credit card statement/repayment (are they the same thing)? Food and clothing receipts? Is it necessary or helpful in reducing the potential fine? Have other people attached theirs?

As I am renting some of the items listed are shared between all living there so what do I quote for these expenses?

I've no idea how much to put for clothes and food? Drinking? Entertainment? Has anybody got any remotely average figures that are deemed reasonable/acceptable

Why would they ask for the number of adults in your home?

Finally do I have to include total savings? If omitted would this have any impact on any potential fine provided the rest of the statement of means form is completed

This post has been edited by MessiBarca: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 22:53
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MessiBarca
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 23:14
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My SJPN is dated 20/4/18. By what date do I need to ensure the SJPN plea is completed by???

The driving solicitor website states
"The time limit you normally have 21 days to respond to the notice. Time starts to run from the day that the notice is served on you (the law assumes that it is TWO business days after it was posted). Make a note in your diary. Don’t miss it, the case could go on without your input." Is that 2 business days correct?

Do I need to submit the form back to them by 10/05/18 (day 21) if 20/4/18 is classed as day 1 OR 12/5/18 at the latest (day 21+2= day23)


Out of curiosity- What is the ACTUAL postal address to "plead by post" as a postal address to return is not actually stated on the form from what I can see??

Can I plea "not guilty" online at the makeplea.justice.gov.uk website? or is the not guilty plea only available via post? Does online still have the MC100 statement only means form to complete online? Thanks again



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Logician
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 00:28
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 23:38) *
I also need advice on the "statement of means" some of the info is quiet personal and having read other posts all day I'm still unsure on how much detail to go in to. For example do you have to state the exact occupation? NI number - not even sure I remember this anymore?! Why would they need that? Can I leave this blank or do I have to find it? It says "supply any documentary evidence which supports the info. you have provided" Should I attach a pay slip? Council tax payment proof? Credit card statement/repayment (are they the same thing)? Food and clothing receipts? Is it necessary or helpful in reducing the potential fine? Have other people attached theirs? As I am renting some of the items listed are shared between all living there so what do I quote for these expenses? I've no idea how much to put for clothes and food? Drinking? Entertainment? Has anybody got any remotely average figures that are deemed reasonable/acceptable Why would they ask for the number of adults in your home? Finally do I have to include total savings? If omitted would this have any impact on any potential fine provided the rest of the statement of means form is completed


You need to be accurate about your income because that information will be used to calculate the fine. You do not have to be too specific about your occupation, for example you can say "salesman" rather than "vacuum cleaner salesman" if it is important to you, but you may be asked if the court wants more details. You can find your NI number on your payslip or tax papers, they may need it to trace you if you get elusive when the time comes to pay a fine. Do not send documentary evidence unless specifically asked for it, in my view. Expenses can be estimated, they do not come into it unless very exceptional, but average figures would not be appropriate. Other adults might be sharing expenses, and if so put in your share not the total. Savings are to indicate your ability to pay a fine, provided you can pay immediately, they will have no impact.



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MessiBarca
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 08:41
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 23:14) *
My SJPN is dated 20/4/18. By what date do I need to ensure the SJPN plea is completed by???

The driving solicitor website states
"The time limit you normally have 21 days to respond to the notice. Time starts to run from the day that the notice is served on you (the law assumes that it is TWO business days after it was posted). Make a note in your diary. Don’t miss it, the case could go on without your input." Is that 2 business days correct?

Do I need to submit the form back to them by 10/05/18 (day 21) if 20/4/18 is classed as day 1 OR 12/5/18 at the latest (day 21+2= day23)


Out of curiosity- What is the ACTUAL postal address to "plead by post" as a postal address to return is not actually stated on the form from what I can see??

Can I plea "not guilty" online at the makeplea.justice.gov.uk website? or is the not guilty plea only available via post? Does online still have the MC100 statement only means form to complete online? Thanks again



Thanks. Can anyone help clarify any of this please?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 09:02
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The SJPN will normally have a date on it by when you have to reply. But there is no real benefit in delaying it.

The plea by post will be local not national AIUI, so no-one is likely to be able to guess for you, does the SJPN really have no address on it at all?

You can enter a plea online, no-one has yet raised an issue and I'm not familiar with the process myself.



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southpaw82
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 11:40
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You could always find the address for the court and write to them. It’s probably not top secret information.


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MessiBarca
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 14:38
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 09:48) *
Others have raised the point - why is the emailed complete S172 response not a satisfactory response? It appears they acknowledged receipt of it; so I would have thought this could be a cast iron defence to the accusation?

Nothing I can see in S172 of the act that proscribes in what format / delivery method the response is to be made.



This is a very important point - Why would my emailed complete S172 email submission not be deemed a satisfactory response? Is it because the CPU have stated this on their form?
Is there anything in S172 legistlation wise itself that dictates the format / delivery method the response is to be made??


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peterguk
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 15:19
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Well in England and Wales the driver declaration has to be signed, implying it has to be in writing.

So is a copy acceptable, or original only?

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cp8759
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 16:05
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 9 May 2018 - 16:19) *
Well in England and Wales the driver declaration has to be signed, implying it has to be in writing.

So is a copy acceptable, or original only?

Providing the signature is visible on the scanned form, I don't see why an email copy wouldn't be acceptable. The real issue is likely to be that the CPU don't understand the legal position and are under the misapprehension that they need a "wet ink signature", which they don't. But they'll never believe that unless a CPS lawyer tells them, so we are where we are.

After all, photocopied witness statements get read out in court all the time and this doesn't seem to cause anyone any concern.


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NewJudge
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 16:58
Post #40


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 9 May 2018 - 17:05) *
After all, photocopied witness statements get read out in court all the time and this doesn't seem to cause anyone any concern.

But there might be if their authenticity was doubted.

Having said that, unless there is any case law to the contrary, I too cannot see a conviction being upheld against somebody who had provided a copy of a properly signed S172 statement, whether by post or e-Mail. After all, all the defendant has to say, on oath, is "Yes, I completed that form and signed it and I photocopied it (or scanned it) and sent it.

I suppose the issue might be that if it was used to support a speeding allegation (which is its purpose) the defendant could argue that it had somehow been forged and not completed by him. But that argument could hold equally with a "wet signature" document. Although the two issues are different (one being used to defend an allegation and the other being used to support one) if the authenticity of the response is challenged (the only possible reason to object to a copy of the form in a S172 case) then surely it is a matter for the court to decide.
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