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FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ Car on Private land, clamped and lifted....dispute on SORN

Posted by: aspar Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:10
Post #1346544

Vehicle was untaxed and parked directly outside a property I own on an unadopted road [confirmed by checking council database]. For clarity it was on the road, not on my drive [I don't have one lol].

I had sent off SORN ages ago.

Vehicle was clamped and then lifted [I don't live there and was out of the country at the time.

I paid up and vehicle was returned to me.

I rang to dispute with the DVLA and they said it wasn't declared sorn and so their subcontractors could lift it [which I understand to be factually correct].

However my position is that I sent them the sorn via the paper and post system and they lost it, so I want a full refund. I believe people have proved that there is no legal requirement for us to contact DVLA if no sorn certificate received [which is what they told me I should have done....].

Would welcome your thoughts on all of this...

Thanks in advance

Obviously I shall be ensuring I definitely have a SORN in place going forward [it's free and easy so crazy not to do it]

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:17
Post #1346546

The problem is going to be how can you prove you sent off the SORN notification?

It is arguable that you'd be better off doing the sorn notification online, as you get a reference immediately on the website followed up by a confirmation email (that's a bit academic now).

Posted by: aspar Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:25
Post #1346547

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:17) *
The problem is going to be how can you prove you sent off the SORN notification?

It is arguable that you'd be better off doing the sorn notification online, as you get a reference immediately on the website followed up by a confirmation email (that's a bit academic now).


Thanks for the reply.

I guess I firstly need to show 'on the balance of probability' that I sent it [why wouldn't I have sent it in, it's free and easy and I gain no advantage by not doing so] and secondly prove that they have a track record of losing stuff [Freedom of Information Request might get me that....or does anyone know of cases similar to mine that I can get a transcript or rfeference of??]

I agree about the online....that's what I did once I knew the DVAL were saying 'it's not sorned' [and will deffo do that in future]...horse and stable door and all that!!!




Posted by: BaggieBoy Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:25
Post #1346548

QUOTE (aspar @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:10) *
However my position is that I sent them the sorn via the paper and post system and they lost it

More likely Royal Mail lost it. Unless you sent it via some tracked method which you neglected to tell us.

Posted by: aspar Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:30
Post #1346551

QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:25) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:10) *
However my position is that I sent them the sorn via the paper and post system and they lost it

More likely Royal Mail lost it. Unless you sent it via some tracked method which you neglected to tell us.


No, not tracked.

I'm offline now for tonight so will answer any other queries on monday.

Posted by: Logician Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:54
Post #1346600

I am afraid that without any evidence that you sent off a SORN declaration you face an uphill struggle. The DVLA are unlikely to simply accept your word for it, so you will have to go to court. The obvious question you will face is why you did not query the failure of the DVLA to acknowledge receipt of the notice you had sent off ages ago, to which you have no very convincing answer, it may not be necessary in law, but would have been a wise precaution and the most likely reason, that you posted the notification and then forgot about the matter, does not help your case.

On the other hand, since the continuous licensing system started the DVLA are supposed to query registered but unlicensed vehicles, and since continuous insurance started, registered but uninsured vehicles as well. You could argue that their failure to query the status of your car could reasonably have led you to believe that it was indeed SORNed, and also, as you say, you had no motive not to declare SORN.

Posted by: Colin_S Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:12
Post #1346678

QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:54) *
I am afraid that without any evidence that you sent off a SORN declaration you face an uphill struggle. The DVLA are unlikely to simply accept your word for it, so you will have to go to court. The obvious question you will face is why you did not query the failure of the DVLA to acknowledge receipt of the notice you had sent off ages ago, to which you have no very convincing answer, it may not be necessary in law, but would have been a wise precaution and the most likely reason, that you posted the notification and then forgot about the matter, does not help your case.

On the other hand, since the continuous licensing system started the DVLA are supposed to query registered but unlicensed vehicles, and since continuous insurance started, registered but uninsured vehicles as well. You could argue that their failure to query the status of your car could reasonably have led you to believe that it was indeed SORNed, and also, as you say, you had no motive not to declare SORN.


The OP has given no hint of timeline for the events which would be useful to see if such a defence would stack up.

Posted by: glasgow_bhoy Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:37
Post #1346682

I don't know about the OP, but I'd never think to expect a certificate of SORN. Your not paying for anything, so I'd not expect a receipt. I'd also not expect one seeing as they don't send you a tax disc anymore.

Posted by: Fredd Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:41
Post #1346683

You don't get one. The only thing you do get (other than email acknowledgement if you do it the easy way, online) is a an acknowledgement together with any refund you're due.

Posted by: baroudeur Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:38
Post #1346782

And the VED situation for any vehicle can be checked online http://https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 19:33
Post #1346842

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:38) *
And the VED situation for any vehicle can be checked online http://https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax

Correct link: https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/

Posted by: Logician Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 20:59
Post #1346860

QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:37) *
I don't know about the OP, but I'd never think to expect a certificate of SORN. Your not paying for anything, so I'd not expect a receipt. I'd also not expect one seeing as they don't send you a tax disc anymore.


You get no certificate, you do get an acknowledgement, do it online and you get it instantly.


Posted by: baroudeur Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 14:11
Post #1346979

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 19:33) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:38) *
And the VED situation for any vehicle can be checked online http://https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax

Correct link: https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/

Apologies. Something went wrong with the link.

Posted by: aspar Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:53
Post #1347564

Thanks for all the replies.

I'm mulling over issuing court papers [after the usual to and fro of letters].

I shall keep you all updated [but it may be several months before we get there!!!]

Posted by: peterguk Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:58
Post #1347569

QUOTE (aspar @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:53) *
I'm mulling over issuing court papers


Against who?

Posted by: Jlc Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 14:10
Post #1347575

QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:58) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:53) *
I'm mulling over issuing court papers


Against who?

And for what?

Posted by: Dwain Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:18
Post #1347662

Can they lift on an unadopted road?

No one seems to have asked/answered this?

Does a vehilce even need to be sorned on an unadopted road? As its not maintained at the pubic expense what right do the DVLA have?

Posted by: aspar Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:19
Post #1347667

Against: DVLA [and their subcontractor???]

For: removing my car whilst it was on private land and SORN [to recover the full costs I paid to get it back]

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:34
Post #1347681

QUOTE (aspar @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:19) *
Against: DVLA [and their subcontractor???]

For: removing my car whilst it was on private land and SORN [to recover the full costs I paid to get it back]

You would need to prove, on the balance of probabilities, that a SORN had been made and was in force. How are you going to do that?

Also consider there's some additional rules you must follow to sue the Crown, you might want to look them up first.

Posted by: samthecat Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:46
Post #1347687

QUOTE (Dwain @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:18) *
Can they lift on an unadopted road?

No one seems to have asked/answered this?

Does a vehilce even need to be sorned on an unadopted road? As its not maintained at the pubic expense what right do the DVLA have?


The clue is in the name.... Statutory Off Road Notification.

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:53
Post #1347689

QUOTE (Dwain @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:18) *
Can they lift on an unadopted road?

Yes they can.

QUOTE (Dwain @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:18) *
Does a vehilce even need to be sorned on an unadopted road? As its not maintained at the pubic expense what right do the DVLA have?

Well you can't have a SORN car on a road maintained at public expense, so if you don't make a SORN when a car is not on a road maintained at public expense, when would you ever make such a notification?

The DVLA have all the rights given to them by Parliament in the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 and all the subordinate regulations, there's probably more than that as well.

Posted by: Jlc Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:00
Post #1347690

Being unadopted doesn’t appear to be a barrier to the lift - as per the RTA. I presume it’s publicly accessible?

Posted by: southpaw82 Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:17
Post #1347693

The Finance Act 2008 amended the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 to allow immobilisation etc of vehicles anywhere except, in broad terms, the curtilage of a dwelling. Section 29 of VERA creates the offence of using or keeping an unlicensed vehicle

QUOTE
(1) If a person uses, or keeps, a vehicle which is unlicensed he is guilty of an offence.


Note

QUOTE
(2B) Subsection (1) does not apply to a vehicle if—
(a) the vehicle is being neither used nor kept on a public road, and
(b) the particulars and declaration required to be furnished and made by regulations under section 22(1D) have been furnished and made in accordance with the regulations and the terms of the declaration have at no time been breached.


So long as it had not been used or kept on a public road it would appear no offence under s 29(1) occurred. Section 62 defines a public road

QUOTE
”public road”—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, means a road which is repairable at the public expense

Posted by: peterguk Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:35
Post #1347700

So, (genuine) question:

Can an unadopted road be repairable at the public expense?

Posted by: Jlc Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:37
Post #1347701

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:17) *
Section 62 defines a public road

QUOTE
”public road”—
(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, means a road which is repairable at the public expense


...so an unadopted road is not repairable at the public expense?

QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:35) *
So, (genuine) question:

Can an unadopted road be repairable at the public expense?

Indeed, which seems to contradict the opening statement:

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:17) *
...to allow immobilisation etc of vehicles anywhere except, in broad terms, the curtilage of a dwelling.

Posted by: southpaw82 Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:47
Post #1347704

QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:37) *
Indeed, which seems to contradict the opening statement:

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:17) *
...to allow immobilisation etc of vehicles anywhere except, in broad terms, the curtilage of a dwelling.


Not at all. The offence under s 29(1) can’t be committed if the road on which the vehicle is kept is not a public road. That is quite a separate question to where a vehicle can be immobilised etc, which is what my opening statement dealt with.

Posted by: Jlc Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:53
Post #1347707

Aha, got it.

Posted by: nigelbb Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 20:43
Post #1347767

QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:35) *
So, (genuine) question:

Can an unadopted road be repairable at the public expense?

The very definition of an unadopted road is that it is not repairable at the public expense.

Posted by: peterguk Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 20:52
Post #1347774

QUOTE (nigelbb @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 20:43) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:35) *
So, (genuine) question:

Can an unadopted road be repairable at the public expense?

The very definition of an unadopted road is that it is not repairable at the public expense.


That makes life easy. Thanks!

Posted by: aspar Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 10:41
Post #1347856

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:34) *
You would need to prove, on the balance of probabilities, that a SORN had been made and was in force. How are you going to do that?

Also consider there's some additional rules you must follow to sue the Crown, you might want to look them up first.


I intend to prove that the DVLA do not action all SORN forms that they receive...FOI request should get me those stats. I would also point to the fact that I gain nothing by not declaring SORN...so it comes down to a 'balance of probabilites'

Any chance of a starting point [other than google] for these extra 'suing the crown' rules??

There's also the 'hassle factor'...wherein the DVLA may choose to pay out as it's cheaper than defending the action [I do however appreciate that we are talking about civil servants here who are quite happy to waste public money as it's not theirs!!! lol]


Posted by: Jlc Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 10:52
Post #1347862

QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 10:41) *
I intend to prove that the DVLA do not action all SORN forms that they receive...

It's clear they don't action the ones they don't receive. But not sure what you mean about them 'ignoring' the ones they do?

If you had proof of posting and a copy of the form then you'd have better standing.

Were you expecting a VED refund?

Posted by: aspar Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 11:15
Post #1347870

QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 11:52) *
It's clear they don't action the ones they don't receive. But not sure what you mean about them 'ignoring' the ones they do?

If you had proof of posting and a copy of the form then you'd have better standing.

Were you expecting a VED refund?


Sorry, didn't mean ignore I mean that they lose/misplace forms all the time and an FOI has/will show this.

I agree.....but I don't.

No refund was expected.

In addition I'm now not 100% sure it even needed to be SORNED.....
Here's part of the regs....[about where they can enter private land to clamp/remove]...from Finance Act 2008


This Schedule does not apply to—
(a)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a dwelling-house, mobile home or houseboat and which is normally enjoyed with it, or
(b)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a building consisting entirely (apart from common parts) of two or more dwellings and which is normally enjoyed only by the occupiers of one or more of those dwellings.”

My vehicle was directly outside my house on the unadopted road [which I have to pay towards maintaining and has been confirmed as unadopted by the council]. My question is....does 'directly outside my house on 'my part of the road'' equate to 'in the vicinity of'???

Posted by: Logician Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 11:52
Post #1347887

How can they respond to an FOI request on the number of SORN declarations they have lost, since they have lost them?

Posted by: aspar Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 12:40
Post #1347905

I like your logic there.....you should adopt a suitably logical username...how about 'logician'.....oh, er it seems to not available!! lol

I can ask how many complaints they have had from people relating to 'lost post' [possibly not received]. I also believe they have a tracking system where they can see that stuff has been received but never made it to be actioned?? Of course my point would be that complaints are usually the 'tip of the iceberg' as many people would only be aware of the 'loss' if they had cause to investigate further [eg getting a fine]....so we can extrapolate the actual amount of 'lost the paperwork at the DVLA' to be quite a bit higher...??

In addition I think that 'putting something in the post' counts as 'served/sent'....so royal mail losses count in my favour??

Reading up on it a bit [Interpretation act, etc] it seems that it's up to them to prove I didn't send them the sorn, not the other way around. Having said that, that stands when they are suing me, I'm not sure how it sits when I'm suing them.....??

PS....any guidance from anyone on the extra stuff to do insuing the government would be most appreciated [google is struggling]

Posted by: southpaw82 Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 14:08
Post #1347949

QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 11:15) *
In addition I'm now not 100% sure it even needed to be SORNED.....
Here's part of the regs....[about where they can enter private land to clamp/remove]...from Finance Act 2008


This Schedule does not apply to—
(a)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a dwelling-house, mobile home or houseboat and which is normally enjoyed with it, or
(b)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a building consisting entirely (apart from common parts) of two or more dwellings and which is normally enjoyed only by the occupiers of one or more of those dwellings.”

My vehicle was directly outside my house on the unadopted road [which I have to pay towards maintaining and has been confirmed as unadopted by the council]. My question is....does 'directly outside my house on 'my part of the road'' equate to 'in the vicinity of'???

That’s only relevant to where a vehicle can be seized from not whether it had to be declared SORN.

Posted by: peterguk Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 14:13
Post #1347953

QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 11:15) *
I'm now not 100% sure it even needed to be SORNED.....


Was it insured?

Posted by: aspar Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 14:55
Post #1347972

QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 15:13) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 11:15) *
I'm now not 100% sure it even needed to be SORNED.....


Was it insured?


Via a fleet policy, but it wouldn't have been on MID.

What relevance does insurance have on them lifting it for no tax?

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 15:08) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 11:15) *
In addition I'm now not 100% sure it even needed to be SORNED.....
Here's part of the regs....[about where they can enter private land to clamp/remove]...from Finance Act 2008


This Schedule does not apply to—
(a)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a dwelling-house, mobile home or houseboat and which is normally enjoyed with it, or
(b)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a building consisting entirely (apart from common parts) of two or more dwellings and which is normally enjoyed only by the occupiers of one or more of those dwellings.”

My vehicle was directly outside my house on the unadopted road [which I have to pay towards maintaining and has been confirmed as unadopted by the council]. My question is....does 'directly outside my house on 'my part of the road'' equate to 'in the vicinity of'???

That’s only relevant to where a vehicle can be seized from not whether it had to be declared SORN.


As I understand it .....[happy to be corrected]....If the vehicle is not SORNED they can enter private property accessible to the public to clamp...EXCEPT for the property described in the para above.

So if my understanding is correct I'm trying to ascertain if 'directly outside my house on 'my part of the road'' equates to 'in the vicinity of'....if it does then they shouldn't have lifted it?

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 15:16
Post #1347978

QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 11:15) *
In addition I'm now not 100% sure it even needed to be SORNED.....

Unless a vehicle has never been taxed since before the SORN rules came into force in the late 90s, all vehicles registered in the UK must be either taxed or SORN'ed, until they are permanently exported or scrapped.

QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 10:41) *
Any chance of a starting point [other than google] for these extra 'suing the crown' rules??

I've never sued the Crown so I'm no expert, but I'd start with Part 66 of the Civil Procedure Rules and the Crown Proceedings Act 1947.

Having said that, I really wouldn't recommend you undertake this course of action, on what you've said so far, I think you'd lose.

Posted by: southpaw82 Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 15:48
Post #1347988

QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 14:55) *
As I understand it .....[happy to be corrected]....If the vehicle is not SORNED they can enter private property accessible to the public to clamp...EXCEPT for the property described in the para above.

So if my understanding is correct I'm trying to ascertain if 'directly outside my house on 'my part of the road'' equates to 'in the vicinity of'....if it does then they shouldn't have lifted it?

I don’t think a part of a road would be considered to be within the curtilage of a dwelling. It’s a very fact sensitive question though.

Posted by: aspar Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 16:03
Post #1347997

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 16:48) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 14:55) *
As I understand it .....[happy to be corrected]....If the vehicle is not SORNED they can enter private property accessible to the public to clamp...EXCEPT for the property described in the para above.

So if my understanding is correct I'm trying to ascertain if 'directly outside my house on 'my part of the road'' equates to 'in the vicinity of'....if it does then they shouldn't have lifted it?

I don’t think a part of a road would be considered to be within the curtilage of a dwelling. It’s a very fact sensitive question though.


I'm not actually suggesting that it's within the curtilage....I asking if it can be considered to be 'within the vicinity of' [as per the regs] ?? It obviously touches the property along a length...is that 'within the vicinity of'??



Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 16:11
Post #1348002

QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 16:03) *
I'm not actually suggesting that it's within the curtilage....I asking if it can be considered to be 'within the vicinity of' [as per the regs] ?? It obviously touches the property along a length...is that 'within the vicinity of'??

Does anyone else ever drive along that part of the road, or park on it?

Posted by: aspar Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 11:23
Post #1348319

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 17:11) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 16:03) *
I'm not actually suggesting that it's within the curtilage....I asking if it can be considered to be 'within the vicinity of' [as per the regs] ?? It obviously touches the property along a length...is that 'within the vicinity of'??

Does anyone else ever drive along that part of the road, or park on it?


Deffo not in the last two years...but it's always been 'our parking spaces [can hold two cars] and has 'please don't park here, residents only' on the railings beaide it.....but I suppose in theory that it's available to anyone if we don't have our cars on there.

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