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Camrose Avenue Harrow, CCTV, PCN - 33C Using a route restricted to certain vehicles buses...etc
lrodin
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 11:15
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Hi all I am wondering if anyone is able to advise me on the best approach to take in regards to an appeal. There are various threads for this road, junction and issue, but none that are quite the same and therefore some further advice would be extremely helpful to identify how best to frame my appeal against a PCN.

The car was a hire car and the PCN was issued to the hire car company. They appear to have had an incorrect postcode on file for me and I have not, to this date, received the letter they sent me informing me of the PCN, however they did charge my credit card an admin fee and therefore I have been trying to establish what the charge was for. I finally got through to them today and they forwarded me a copy of the PCN notice and the letter they sent me that I did not receive by email. Notwithstanding this the photos on the council website are not great, but show the vehicle driving through the wrong gate of this confusing junction (there are multiple successful appeals on other threads some reaching the adjudicator). The car is clearly following a police car and ambulance, neither of which were on an emergency, as there was a traffic jam (see attached photo). I only saw the width restriction sign, not the bus lane or road markings and diligently followed both emergency vehicles through the wrong gate (see photo attached).

I have not personally received the PCN but appear to be able to appeal on the council website still at the reduced rate, therefore my query is in three parts:

a) Should I just appeal now or wait until the actual PCN eventually reaches me, addressed to me?

b) If appealing now, what is the best approach to take for said appeal?

Any advice would be warmly and gratefully received.

Regards.





Here is the pcn image

Here is the image from the council website
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post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 11:15
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 11:36
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This presupposes that the hire co have made reps and had them accepted, check that first

The council will need to issue a new PCN in your name. I am in two minds as to the advice. On the one hand there are time constraints on them doing this that they may miss.
On the other, this is unlikely. But if they serve a PCN and it has the wrong post code you will not receive it, the enforcement process will grind blithely on til bailiffs show up at your door.

This can be dealt with but is stressful and cumbersome. on reflection perhaps contact the council. do it in writing Email is fine but get a receipt or copy yourself. or snail mail get free proof of posting at the post office
advise them that you have been forwarded a copy PCN by the hire co that you were the hirer and the correct address for service of the new PCN.



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lrodin
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 12:18
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Thank you so much for your response. I have spoken to the hire company, who were really helpful. They have launched an internal check to confirm whether the correct address was sent to the council and if not should be confirming the correct address. As I mentioned I can make representation directly but the council's website doesn't appear to allow me to ask them to re-issue (or issue) a PCN to me, only to make an appeal. Shall I wait a week and see what happens or just make the appeal (even though the PCN isn't issued to me), what do you think?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 12:24
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QUOTE (lrodin @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 12:18) *
Thank you so much for your response. I have spoken to the hire company, who were really helpful. They have launched an internal check to confirm whether the correct address was sent to the council and if not should be confirming the correct address. As I mentioned I can make representation directly but the council's website doesn't appear to allow me to ask them to re-issue (or issue) a PCN to me, only to make an appeal. Shall I wait a week and see what happens or just make the appeal (even though the PCN isn't issued to me), what do you think?



You cannot make representations to the council against a PCN not in your name without the permission of the person whose name it is in


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lrodin
post Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 11:09
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Ok thanks, will leave it for a few days and contact the hire car company to follow up and ensure they have confirmed the correct details to the council. Thanks for your help thus far and I will post again when I receive the actual PCN
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 13:37
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QUOTE (lrodin @ Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 11:09) *
Ok thanks, will leave it for a few days and contact the hire car company to follow up and ensure they have confirmed the correct details to the council. Thanks for your help thus far and I will post again when I receive the actual PCN


You need to know the date the hire company made representations and the date these were accepted . Is there a PCN status online and does it show a timeline


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lrodin
post Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 21:46
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Unfortunately not, I am away next week so will email the hire car company in the morning to confirm my conversation with them and that they were going to correct check the details with the council and then wait until they confirm. I'll also ask them for the dates they responded to the council and if they have received acknowledgement. Thanks again smile.gif
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lrodin
post Fri, 24 Nov 2017 - 13:23
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Hi - I have now received the PCN from the council in my name, could I have some advice on the best approach to take with an appeal?
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Mr Mustard
post Fri, 24 Nov 2017 - 14:09
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Someone drove into the signs at this location and they have been removed rather than replaced so you need a current photo of the scene. If you live locally you could pop back to the scene and take some photos (any experts on here could do likewise? I'm only 10 miles away normally but currently out on site in Northants 5 days aweek doing my day job).

Those council photos are not very good in bulk like that. You can open them up with a right click I think and then use an app like Jing or the snipping tool in Microsoft OneNote to save them individually.

This post has been edited by Mr Mustard: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 - 14:18


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lrodin
post Fri, 24 Nov 2017 - 15:19
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Hi thanks for responding, basically the photos show me following an ambulance and police car through (what I now know to be) the incorrect part of the junction. I had never driven through there before, didn't see any signs and assumed that as both the police car and ambulance who I was following in traffic, neither of whom were on an emergency, drove through that was the correct route to take.

The PCN code is 33C - USING A ROUTE RESTRICTED TO CERTAIN VEHICLES BUSES AND CYCLES ONLY

I don't have enough space in this thread to upload any more files tp load the scan of the PCN.

Thanks
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Mr Mustard
post Fri, 24 Nov 2017 - 16:47
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We need photographs of the signs from in front of them not behind. You can use a hosting site like tinypic to post a link to your pictures as that does not use up your space.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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lrodin
post Fri, 24 Nov 2017 - 18:19
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Ok thanks will do
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lrodin
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 12:08
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I'm not able to get current photos as I do not live near the area, however these are the images from the council website uploaded to tiny pic:



The reason I would hope to use is that someone unfamiliar with this type of road layout and having never driven through this road before. I was in slow moving traffic following a police car and ambulance, neither who were on an emergency, therefore as the road markings indicated bus and cycle, but the police car drove through, I had assumed the police knew the road and that the road markings were temporary as with some bus lanes and therefore the markings were not in operation (incorrectly assuming that the police would comply with the law). I only noticed a sign for the width restriction and did not notice any signs suggesting that I could not drive through the section that I followed the police car through.

This post has been edited by lrodin: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 12:02
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 12:59
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The 2nd photo from the left is key--can you provide it in better resolution please?

Don't want to step on Mr Mustard's toes but it looks like a Diagram 953 sign.

Mick
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Mr Mustard
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 13:31
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After you, I'm run off my feet at work. I'm going to Edgware on Wednedsday morning to see a lady whose 3 y.o. daughter's head was banged by the bailiff pushing past her at the door, tut tut, so can pass by here and take some photos.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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lrodin
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 17:20
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 12:59) *
The 2nd photo from the left is key--can you provide it in better resolution please?

Don't want to step on Mr Mustard's toes but it looks like a Diagram 953 sign.

Mick


I will try to take off the council website again and upload shortly


QUOTE (lrodin @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 17:12) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 12:59) *
The 2nd photo from the left is key--can you provide it in better resolution please?

Don't want to step on Mr Mustard's toes but it looks like a Diagram 953 sign.

Mick


I will try to take off the council website again and upload shortly


http://oi63.tinypic.com/2i9gsj.jpg

Its not showing well on the tinypic website. The files itself is 350mb, let me know if there is a better way to share.

This post has been edited by lrodin: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 17:27
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Mr Mustard
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 17:49
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The cctv does not show what signs you passed which are all the signs that matter.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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Neil B
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 18:13
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 12:59) *
The 2nd photo from the left is key--can you provide it in better resolution please?

Don't want to step on Mr Mustard's toes but it looks like a Diagram 953 sign.

Mick

The rear of the vehicle in that pic is not OP.

OP is oncoming, behind the police car, so Mustard is right -
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 17:49) *
The cctv does not show what signs you passed which are all the signs that matter.

but I think adjudicators may well accept stock pics of -
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6018251,-...3312!8i6656

(would not accept 2008 GSV but I imagine they have better.)

How have adjudications gone on this?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 18:14


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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lrodin
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 13:30
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Mr Mustard/Neil

Thank you both for your help, much appriciated. I am going away later this week so need to lodge my appeal by tomorrow, assuming the stock pics are acceptable and/or are still the signs at the site, what are my grounds for an appeal if any on the basis of my previous explanation that I was in traffic, had never driven through that junction in my life and followed the police car and ambulance having not seen the sign and only the road markings which were confusing.

Thanks in advance
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 15:38
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The signage is key and if it is a Diagram 953 the defence in this thread is possible:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1335255

Mick
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