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In danger of totting up 12 points.
MoFoHo
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 20:52
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Hi everyone. I'm writing to ask for some advice.

I currently work as a surveyor, and drive for work. I often drive high miles due to me being a bit of a 'jack of all trades'.
For a while I've been on 9 points (on my license). I drive a company car.

SP30 on Oct 2017
SP30 on July 2017
SP50 on Aug 2016

Late last year I was caught again, but thankfully offered a speed awareness course.

But unfortunately, I've just received a photocopy of a NIP from my company, for 20th March (caught doing 40MPH in a 30MPH zone). Which means I'll receive the NIP through my door very soon.

I'm wracked with guilt and hate myself-I was trying so hard, to be careful. I'm no speed demon. I drive like I'm 'Driving Miss Daisy', but the constant changes in speed limits on country roads just seem to catch me out. My company send me into Lancaster quite often, which is a long journey and a very stressful day.

The same day of the speeding offence, mere minutes before I was caught by the mobile speed camera, I was effectively 'pushed' into a narrow bridge, famous for being an accident spot, by a HGV coming the opposite way. Luckily, I only damaged the passenger side sill, and drivers door mirror, but I was pretty rattled, and obviously my concentration on my speed slipped. I even saw the guy with the mobile radar gun, right in front of the 30/40 change in speed limit. So i guess I knew this was coming.

I'm worrying myself to death. My job requires I am able to drive. I'm a single dad, to a 17 year old (raised him from 8 months) and I feel like I've let him down so badly- he loves our home (which I certainly stand to lose should I lose my job). I've put the last 5 years of my heart and soul into my job, attempting to better myself, and I stand to lose everything now.

I'm supposed to be meeting one of those 'speeding fine specialist solicitors' tomorrow. But I can't sleep and I'd welcome ANY advice.
I've been told I could claim 'exceptional hardship', which is what this solicitor is all about. Does anyone think I could do this?
And what are the typical legal costs?
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post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 20:52
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Jlc
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 20:57
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Upon reaching 12 points, which seems inevitable you will tot. This is a 6 month ban.

However, you will have the opportunity to submit an exceptional hardship plea. This can reduce the ban, potentially to none.

The impact on others carries more weight and losing your job, in itself, is not necessarily exceptional.

You need to concentrate on your son and how it would impact him.

You don't necessarily need a solicitor as it's your situation that matters and probably comes best from you. A solicitor can obviously advise/represent you. In terms of costs this will depend but would likely be several hundred pounds upwards depending on their rates/service.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 20:58


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MoFoHo
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 21:07
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 21:57) *
Upon reaching 12 points, which seems inevitable you will tot. This is a 6 month ban.

However, you will have the opportunity to submit an exceptional hardship plea. This can reduce the ban, potentially to none.

The impact on others carries more weight and losing your job, in itself, is not necessarily exceptional.

You need to concentrate on your son and how it would impact him.

You don't necessarily need a solicitor as it's your situation that matters and probably comes best from you. A solicitor can obviously advise/represent you. In terms of costs this will depend but would likely be several hundred pounds upwards depending on their rates/service.


Thanks for the quick reply.
My son WOULD be gutted. Although he goes to his mum on a weekend, he's always lived with me and would be greatly upset. He's currently studying his 2nd year at college. Life at his mothers wouldn't be great (for him).
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 22:13
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Without making assumptions, if you are in a well paid job the court will almost certainly ask whether you have savings or credit that could last you the six months? Whether you could attend some of your work by public transport?

Being "in demand" usually means clients will make allowances for you.

Its worth thinking about these things because a court may question why a busy, successful surveyor would lose their house because of six months of limited work.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 06:42
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You also need to consider what steps you can take to improve your limit adherence, being caught 5 times in 18 months doesn’t bode well for the future.

Look at what driver aid tech you have on your car (and check for the tech on cars you get going forward) perhaps. Mine can display the speed limit, flash that when you go more than 5mph over, has a speed limiter as well (mine is set manually) which is useful in extensive 30mph areas.

As for the exceptional hardship plea, consider anything that could be considered exceptional, but bear in mind anything you use cannot be used again for three years so if you think you may get caught again in the next 18 months whether you should keep some powder dry.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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MoFoHo
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 08:27
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 23:13) *
Without making assumptions, if you are in a well paid job the court will almost certainly ask whether you have savings or credit that could last you the six months? Whether you could attend some of your work by public transport?

Being "in demand" usually means clients will make allowances for you.

Its worth thinking about these things because a court may question why a busy, successful surveyor would lose their house because of six months of limited work.


I don't have any savings, and I'm struggling with a little credit card debt, so a loss of job would certainly mean loss of my home.
I can't really use public transport for my job, as the clients are all over the place, plus I carry a lot of equipment in the car.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 07:42) *
You also need to consider what steps you can take to improve your limit adherence, being caught 5 times in 18 months doesn’t bode well for the future.

Look at what driver aid tech you have on your car (and check for the tech on cars you get going forward) perhaps. Mine can display the speed limit, flash that when you go more than 5mph over, has a speed limiter as well (mine is set manually) which is useful in extensive 30mph areas.

As for the exceptional hardship plea, consider anything that could be considered exceptional, but bear in mind anything you use cannot be used again for three years so if you think you may get caught again in the next 18 months whether you should keep some powder dry.


Yes, I've been extremely unlucky, I'm not a speed demon, I assure you. I just end up driving lots of miles, and the police seemingly excel at knowing where people creep over the speed limit whilst on a daily commute.

I've started using Waze in my car, which tells me the current speed limit (it's sometimes wrong though) as well as an accurate representation of my current speed. I've also started driving using the speed limiter function of my car, which requires me to constantly adjust it as I'm driving through different areas, but it works well, so I'm certainly going to continue using it.



Anyway, for now, what's the best advice? Attempt to represent myself in court, or pay a solicitor to do it for me?
(I've read some of the 'case studies/examples' of self representation on these forums).

When I receive my NIP should I return it immediately? Does it take long for me to be summoned to court?
I think some of my points drop off my license drop off in late August this year. Would that have a bearing on anything?
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Jlc
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 09:12
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It will many months before you are in court but it’s the dates of the offences that matter. (So the points won’t ‘drop off’)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Slithy Tove
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 09:45
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QUOTE (MoFoHo @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 22:07) *
My son WOULD be gutted. Although he goes to his mum on a weekend, he's always lived with me and would be greatly upset. He's currently studying his 2nd year at college. Life at his mothers wouldn't be great (for him).

I don't think simply being "gutted" will be enough.
Does he drive yet (better in a way if he doesn't as you end up having to ferry him about)? Do you take him to his mum's each weekend? Would there be a public transport alternative if not? Do you have to take him elsewhere that cannot be achieved any other way. Unfortunately, in a way, as a 17 year old, he would be expected to be somewhat capable of travelling by public transport.
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peodude
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 10:34
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What course did you do last time? There are 3 speeding courses.

1. 20 mph course
2. Standard course
3. Motorway course

All are independent, so taking one does not disqualify you from taking any of the others.
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MoFoHo
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 11:50
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QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 10:45) *
QUOTE (MoFoHo @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 22:07) *
My son WOULD be gutted. Although he goes to his mum on a weekend, he's always lived with me and would be greatly upset. He's currently studying his 2nd year at college. Life at his mothers wouldn't be great (for him).

I don't think simply being "gutted" will be enough.
Does he drive yet (better in a way if he doesn't as you end up having to ferry him about)? Do you take him to his mum's each weekend? Would there be a public transport alternative if not? Do you have to take him elsewhere that cannot be achieved any other way. Unfortunately, in a way, as a 17 year old, he would be expected to be somewhat capable of travelling by public transport.


He doesn't drive no. He turns 18 in June anyway. Although he has a bus pass, I shuttle to and from college, and his mums, obviously.


QUOTE (peodude @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 11:34) *
What course did you do last time? There are 3 speeding courses.

1. 20 mph course
2. Standard course
3. Motorway course

All are independent, so taking one does not disqualify you from taking any of the others.


I've only attended the standard courses. One late last year, and the same just over 3 years sgo.

I know it looks bad, like I said, I'm no speed demon. My company sends me all over the place, way out of my own 'area', and I've just notched up these points very quickly. I don't race around the place. My company car is a 1.6l diesel estate. With out of date sat nav, and a steering wheel that completely covers the digital speedo readout.

Thinking I should get the house on the market.
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NewJudge
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 13:03
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You should hope for the best (that the court accepts your EH argument) but prepare for the worst (that they don't).

Quite honestly the issue with your son as you explain it is very unlikely to fly. The court will consider that an able bodied 18 year old may well be "gutted" at not being ferried from pillar to post but that he is quite capable of making his own arrangements for six months. I think you should concentrate on your loss of employment and the potential loss of your house (the loss of your job on it's own is unlikely to fly). You need to demonstrate to the court that you definitely will lose your job (a letter from your employer will help). You need to show that alternative employment is not realistic. You need to show that your finances are so parlous that the house will have to go and what the alternatives accommodation-wise are.

The overall principle is that hardship to a greater or lesser degree is to be expected following a driving ban. You have to show that the hardship you will suffer is exceptional (that is, over and above what might normally be expected).

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 13:05
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The Rookie
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 13:27
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Just for reference, data suggests that circa 1/4 people who tot have an exceptional hardship plea accepted, how many try and fail there is no data for that we’ve seen.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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KH_
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 17:32
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 14:27) *
Just for reference, data suggests that circa 1/4 people who tot have an exceptional hardship plea accepted, how many try and fail there is no data for that we’ve seen.


I would imagine circa 3/4 fail, unless I'm misunderstanding your statement?
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NeverMind
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 17:54
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QUOTE (KH_ @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 18:32) *
I would imagine circa 3/4 fail, unless I'm misunderstanding your statement?


You misunderstood. A quarter of those who tot have an EH plea accepted. But we don't know what percentage of totters submit an EH plea in the first place.

So we don't know how many try and fail.

This post has been edited by NeverMind: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 17:55
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KH_
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 18:18
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QUOTE (NeverMind @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 18:54) *
QUOTE (KH_ @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 18:32) *
I would imagine circa 3/4 fail, unless I'm misunderstanding your statement?


You misunderstood. A quarter of those who tot have an EH plea accepted. But we don't know what percentage of totters submit an EH plea in the first place.

So we don't know how many try and fail.


TY, misunderstanding explained smile.gif
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 09:59
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QUOTE (MoFoHo @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 09:27) *
Anyway, for now, what's the best advice? Attempt to represent myself in court, or pay a solicitor to do it for me?
(I've read some of the 'case studies/examples' of self representation on these forums).

When I receive my NIP should I return it immediately? Does it take long for me to be summoned to court?
I think some of my points drop off my license drop off in late August this year. Would that have a bearing on anything?

If you are pleading guilty and a reasonably eloquent person there is no real need for a solicitor - all you are doing is describing the hardship you will suffer, not any complex legal argument. The courts tend to be reasonable about accommodating unrepresented defendants so you don't need to be an expert - just know how to address the magistrates/judge, take five copies of any evidence you intend to rely on to support your EH plea.

After all, if you are clearly bricking it then that may well show the bench that you really, really don't want to come back. Remember they are used to seeing rude chavs who don't give a sh*t, so someone who is respectful and remorseful can be mitigation in itself.

The points dropping off have no effect because it is the date of the offence that counts. Obviously it it crucial you don't get any more points, because you can only use any EH argument once in a three year period. I would suggest for a start sorting out your car so you can see the speedo. It doesn't matter how sneaky or otherwise the police are if you don't know what speed you are going.

If you want to increase your chances of a sympathetic hearing you can think about what practical things you can do to prevent a reoccurence. Signing up for an advanced drivers course is always a good start. Just telling the court it is "inevitable" you will get caught because of the number of miles you do won't impress them.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 09:59
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The Rookie
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 11:15
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QUOTE (MoFoHo @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 21:52) *
SP30 on Oct 2017
SP30 on July 2017
SP50 on Aug 2016

Points count for totting for 3 years (so it's August before the first cease to count, but assuming you get convicted of this offence it will be July 2020 before you can have another offence without risking a totting ban.

Points stay on your licence for 4 years, so none are about to 'drop off' as you put it, not for nearly 18 months!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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wwstwh
post Thu, 2 May 2019 - 16:54
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 10:59) *
If you want to increase your chances of a sympathetic hearing you can think about what practical things you can do to prevent a reoccurence. Signing up for an advanced drivers course is always a good start.


I like this idea! It seems that such a course is only about £300 and I imagine would look like a good thing to have voluntarily undertaken. Has anyone had any experience in mentioning this as an aside during an attempted EH plea?

Perhaps the solicitor's fee would be better spent on the course.
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NewJudge
post Thu, 2 May 2019 - 20:58
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QUOTE (wwstwh @ Thu, 2 May 2019 - 17:54) *
Perhaps the solicitor's fee would be better spent on the course.

I disagree.

As with the other thread where a similar idea was aired, taking (or saying you have booked) a driving course is unlikely to have any influence on the sentence handed down. More than that, it has no bearing whatsoever on an Exceptional Hardship plea which must concentrate on precisely that.

The money would be better spent on your fines and costs. Any left over could be used for alternative transport in the event your EH plea is unsuccessful.
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MoFoHo
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 18:48
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Just an update. I've finally received my 'Notice of requirement to provide driver details'. (My S172?)
I've decided that if I plead exceptional hardship, I'll just represent myself. I'm bricking it, frankly. I've had a letter drafted by the HR department explaining that a loss of driving license will most likely result in termination of my employment, and that I drive in excess of 750 miles most weeks.

So, I have 28 days to return this S172 form confirming that I'm the driver. Then what? Should I return it straight away? I then presume I have to request a court summons, have I got that right?
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