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Television apparatus S109., See BBC article.
Darkatmosphere
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 17:48
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-46809697


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/10...lation/109/made

So, the driver got pulled for watching youtube and was issued a ticket for S109 road vehicle reg act.

Does an LED screen on a mobile phone fall into this category. As part two of the act clear state:


(2) In this regulation “television receiving apparatus” means any cathode ray tube carried on a vehicle and on which there can be displayed an image derived from a television broadcast, a recording or a camera or computer

The act makes no mention of "or use of a mobile phone device to receive recorded or live images".

I thought S104 of the act would have been a safer bet seeing as it was mounted on the screen infront of him, and causing a distraction.

This post has been edited by Darkatmosphere: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 22:01


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post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 17:48
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Ocelot
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 18:09
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I'd be surprised if his phone had a cathode ray tube in it.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 19:27
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I’d imagine it was Reg 109 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986. You’d have to check if it’s been amended to update the offence.


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Darkatmosphere
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 20:46
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 19:27) *
I’d imagine it was Reg 109 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986. You’d have to check if it’s been amended to update the offence.

I can see one mention of 109 in the list. Only one I could find is The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 19861986 No. 1078 regs 101–109applThe Road Vehicles (Authorisation of Special Types) (General) Order 20032003 No. 1998art 37(b) Sch 11 Pt 3 para 8(1).
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/changes/affe...mber&page=5
109 remains intact and unchanged as far I can tell in my research.


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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 23:42
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Shame there isn't a "being so obviously stupid you deserve to be pulled" section, to be challenged in court if required.

I passed a car today in the late dusk who had decided to drive on sidelights. But he had swapped the sidelights for some bright blue ones. Some people are too stupid to have a driving licence.
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Korting
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 00:28
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So if this goes to court which it might do, the driver could plead not guilty on the basis that the device used to view the film did not have a CRT. Would the court then have to find him not guilty?
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Half_way
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 10:30
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Using youtube to listen to music is quite common, i know a few people who do this, as opposed to paying for a music subscription.
So if you've got your phone in an in car phone holder, and you are using it to listen to music, then using youtube as a music player seems perfecly understandable
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Spandex
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 11:01
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Wouldn’t the phone display count as “or other cinematographic apparatus used to display anything other than information” in this case? S109 doesn’t just cover CRTs.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 11:09
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Spandex pointed out the relevant bit

QUOTE (Half_way @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 10:30) *
Using youtube to listen to music is quite common, i know a few people who do this, as opposed to paying for a music subscription.
So if you've got your phone in an in car phone holder, and you are using it to listen to music, then using youtube as a music player seems perfecly understandable


Understandable maybe but illegal if the video as playing












This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 11:08
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Half_way
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 11:48
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The legislation says this, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/10...lation/109/made
QUOTE
Television sets

109.—(1) No person shall drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle on a road, if the driver is in such a position as to be able to see, whether directly or by reflection, a television receiving apparatus or other cinematographic apparatus used to display anything other than information—

(a) about the state of the vehicle or its equipment;

(b) about the location of the vehicle and the road on which it is located;

© to assist the driver to see the road adjacent to the vehicle; or

(d) to assist the driver to reach his destination.

(2) In this regulation “television receiving apparatus” means any cathode ray tube carried on a vehicle and on which there can be displayed an image derived from a television broadcast, a recording or a camera or computer.


So from that, anything that falls outside of A-D could be interpreted as illegal.


Shows a phone running an in car app, this can read out text messages, to which you can reply using voice, and do several other things which fall outside of A-D
by extension could any one found using android auot/apple car play could technicaly be in breach?
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typefish
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 12:06
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 11:01) *
Wouldn’t the phone display count as “or other cinematographic apparatus used to display anything other than information” in this case? S109 doesn’t just cover CRTs.


I never knew phones recorded the output of YouTube

"Cinematographic apparatus" does not mean "thing with a screen", it means "dash cam displaying recording" or "camcorder"
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DancingDad
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 12:24
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QUOTE (Half_way @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 11:48) *
......….So from that, anything that falls outside of A-D could be interpreted as illegal...…...

Yup
Include inbuild equipment such as my Bluetooth phone connection with contact lists, the display screen for that lot does not fall into A-D.
Could even be argued that an outside temperature display only loosely falls into D.
Whether any cop would cite a relatively bland information screen or in car app for voice txts, especially if built in, is open to question.
Whether or not in the public interest or interest of justice is another question.


Most video display systems have an inhibitor (or recommendation if retro fitting) to prevent videos being shown when vehicle is moving/in gear.
Some screens have diverters so driver cannot see the video but passenger can
Watching the latest film is not a good idea for the driver and would IMO be suitable for prosecution


QUOTE (typefish @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 12:06) *
QUOTE (Spandex @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 11:01) *
Wouldn’t the phone display count as “or other cinematographic apparatus used to display anything other than information” in this case? S109 doesn’t just cover CRTs.


I never knew phones recorded the output of YouTube

"Cinematographic apparatus" does not mean "thing with a screen", it means "dash cam displaying recording" or "camcorder"


Phones do not need to record youtube, they can simply play it.


A display screen is Cinematographic Equipment ergo, a thing with a screen falls into it, especially as it is being "used to display"
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Steve_999
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:05
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QUOTE (typefish @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 12:06) *
. . . . .

"Cinematographic apparatus" does not mean "thing with a screen", it means "dash cam displaying recording" or "camcorder"


I think you will find that the word "Cinematographic" or Cinematography predates by rather a long time "dash cam" and "camcorder". Hence your definition is rather wide of the mark methinks!
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Darkatmosphere
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:16
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So is everyone of consensus that (2) is not applicable to 109 in its entirety and that it can be cherry picked to mean what ever someone wants it to mean?

I think (2) is very important wording there, when it relates to "television receiving apparatus".

Cinematography is recording equipment like a camera and sounding equipment rigging and booms for recording, it aims for films crews and amateur film recordings in and on vehicles on public highways without express permission and permits etc. It think it does not relate to a mobile phone receiving and displaying Images or recording or live tv.

A mobile phone transmits and receives televised data and displays images and video live or recorded, it would fall into 109 but for one thing (2)In this regulation “television receiving apparatus” means any cathode ray tube carried on a vehicle and on which there can be displayed an image derived from a television broadcast, a recording or a camera or computer. Which means that a mobile phone is not a cathode ray tube device and don't fall within the scope of 109, this is my interpretation, some may not agree but I think the regulation is too old and needs to include LED/OLED "mobile device".

This post has been edited by Darkatmosphere: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:44


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666
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:47
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QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:16) *
Cinematography is recording equipment like a camera and sounding equipment rigging and booms for recording, it aims for films crews and amateur film recordings in and on vehicles on public highways without express permission and permits etc. It think it does not relate to a mobile phone receiving and displaying Images or recording or live tv.

The reg actually refers not to cinematography but to "cinematographic apparatus", which covers both filming and projection, and could (perhaps) be interpreted to cover mobile phones.

And BTW the C & U regs are designed to ensure road safety, not to regulate filming on public highways.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:56
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QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:16) *
So is everyone of consensus that (2) is not applicable to 109 in its entirety and that it can be cherry picked to mean what ever someone wants it to mean?

I think (2) is very important wording there, when it relates to "television receiving apparatus".

Cinematography is recording equipment like a camera and sounding equipment rigging and booms for recording, it aims for films crews and amateur film recordings in and on vehicles on public highways without express permission and permits etc. It think it does not relate to a mobile phone receiving and displaying Images or recording or live tv.

A mobile phone transmits and receives televised data and displays images and video live or recorded, it would fall into 109 but for one thing (2)In this regulation “television receiving apparatus” means any cathode ray tube carried on a vehicle and on which there can be displayed an image derived from a television broadcast, a recording or a camera or computer. Which means that a mobile phone is not a cathode ray tube device and don't fall within the scope of 109, this is my interpretation, some may not agree but I think the regulation is too old and needs to include LED/OLED "mobile device".



Interpret how you will.
At your peril.
To quote many learned judges, "When read as a whole"
Don't pick words and try to fit that into what you want it to mean, look at the whole lot and work out what the draftsman is trying to say.
Many have tried and failed with the make it fit approach in courts and at adjudications.

For instance, where does Cinematography being recording equipment et al fall into " ...cinematographic apparatus used to display anything other than..."
The very word display gives a very strong inference that the wording relates to display screens.
Item 2 is simply interpretation on what "television receiving apparatus" meant then.
But is qualified with the catch all in (1) " or any other cinematographic apparatus used to display anything other than..."


Does it need to be updated to include any possibility of type of display ?
Not in my opinion when that catchall is in the wording.
Could update to remove the specific about CRT but why when it has no effect on whether an LED or OLED screen falls into the "any other.." category.
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Darkatmosphere
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:00
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QUOTE (666 @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:47) *
QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:16) *
Cinematography is recording equipment like a camera and sounding equipment rigging and booms for recording, it aims for films crews and amateur film recordings in and on vehicles on public highways without express permission and permits etc. It think it does not relate to a mobile phone receiving and displaying Images or recording or live tv.

The reg actually refers not to cinematography but to "cinematographic apparatus", which covers both filming and projection, and could (perhaps) be interpreted to cover mobile phones.

And BTW the C & U regs are designed to ensure road safety, not to regulate filming on public highways.

He was reported for "using a motor vehicle when television receiving apparatus was visible to the driver". not cinematography and its a stretch of the imagination to suggest a mobile phone is cinematography apparatus. Does the regulation apply there? I think it doesn't and is self explanatory as to why its aimed at cold cathode ray tubes from the 80 and 90's. I think reg 104 or RTA 88 C.52 Part 1 sec 3 Careless, and inconsiderate, driving, would have been a safe TOR.

This post has been edited by Darkatmosphere: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:02


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cp8759
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:04
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I think the Department for Transport is probably of the view that technology has moved on so much, and a modern s109 would require so many changes (watching youtube on your phone not ok, using a phone in "car mode" designed not to distract the direct is ok (and maybe create a regulatory system for apps which are approved for in-car display), then you'd have to add all sorts of rules around what in-car displays can and cannot show....), I'm sure someone must have looked at it in the past 20 years or so and rapidly concluded that regulating everything to the nth degree would be a lot of effort and it's far easier to rely on the police using a bit of common sense.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:34
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QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:00) *
...........He was reported for "using a motor vehicle when television receiving apparatus was visible to the driver". not cinematography and its a stretch of the imagination to suggest a mobile phone is cinematography apparatus. Does the regulation apply there? I think it doesn't and is self explanatory as to why its aimed at cold cathode ray tubes from the 80 and 90's. I think reg 104 or RTA 88 C.52 Part 1 sec 3 Careless, and inconsiderate, driving, would have been a safe TOR.

The important bit will not be what the tweet from the cops or the BBC says.
It will be what is written on the summons should he decide to fight it.
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Steve_999
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:40
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QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:00) *
. . . . .its a stretch of the imagination to suggest a mobile phone is cinematographyic apparatus.. . . . .


I would suggest that the courts might have more imagination than you in that case!
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