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Armtrac Security - Gwithian, Motorbike
ALI234
post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 12:29
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Hi,

A few days ago the rider went to Gwithian beach and parked a motorbike on what seemed to be just a patch of dirt - no bays or markings. There was a pay and display car park about 100 meters or so away, but it was clearly marked and separated from this patch of dirt. Checked for signs, the rider didn't see any and assumed it would be alright - a free for all of sorts. Later that day the rider got a ticket from Armtrac Security for 'not having a permit'. In the rider's experience in pay & display car parks parking is always free for motorcycles - because how would one be supposed to display the ticket without it getting blown by the wind / rain?
So the question is: even if there were visible signs that required the rider to display some sort of permit and they are in the wrong, how would they be able to display said permit on a motorcycle?

Secondly, the ticket says 'The vehicle was parked in a manner where the driver agreed to pay a parking charge as displayed on the signage on site'. This seems to contradict the reason for the ticket: 'no permit'. Are Armtrac actually referring to a ticket from the machine, even though the motorcycle was not in the marked area?

Not sure if relevant at all, but the ticket was not stuck to the vehicle, just slid under the passenger strap.

Armtrac are part of IPC - is there any point in appealing to IAS with something along the lines of what has already been explained above? Or should the keeper just wait for the NTK and take it from there? Seems like others have recommended to not waste any time on appealing to IAS, but any thoughts are appreciated.



Ticket 1/2 - https://ibb.co/WxYLx6x
Ticket 2/2 - https://ibb.co/XyZ9KLx

And here are the photos they took:

https://ibb.co/RP1VbjX
https://ibb.co/DKjB724
https://ibb.co/f9hvqjY

This post has been edited by ALI234: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 19:51
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post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 12:29
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Dave65
post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 12:43
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Photos of any signage please.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 12:54
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QUOTE (ALI234 @ Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 13:29) *
is there any point in appealing to IAS

None whatsoever.

You can appeal to Armtrac but they will reject any appeal, because they can. The sole point behind the appeal will be to show them you are informed and ready to fight any possible court claim (they are fairly litigious), with the intent of diverting them towards easier prey.


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Lynnzer
post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 14:11
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QUOTE (Dave65 @ Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 13:43) *
Photos of any signage please.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.2288165,-5....3312!8i6656


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ALI234
post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 14:16
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QUOTE (Dave65 @ Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 13:43) *
Photos of any signage please.


I didn't see any signage and I don't live around the area so can't go back to take photos.


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 13:54) *
QUOTE (ALI234 @ Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 13:29) *
is there any point in appealing to IAS

None whatsoever.

You can appeal to Armtrac but they will reject any appeal, because they can. The sole point behind the appeal will be to show them you are informed and ready to fight any possible court claim (they are fairly litigious), with the intent of diverting them towards easier prey.


Understood, thank you - that makes sense. At what point is it best to appeal to Armtrac - Straight away, or after I've received the NTK? I'll make sure to post up whatever write up I come up with, but could you suggest what I should be focusing on? (Is it the lack of prominent signage, impossibility to display a permit or ticket on a motorcycle, or that their terms & conditions on the ticket don't cover permits)
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Lynnzer
post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 14:25
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QUOTE (Dave65 @ Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 13:43) *
Photos of any signage please.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.2288165,-5....3312!8i6656


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The Rookie
post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 14:41
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You appeal AS THE KEEPER such that the appeal arrives with them as soon as possible now (the parking event being a month ago), the intention is they then use those keepers details and not access the DVLA database. Failing to use the database means they cannot hold the keeper liable and not the driver (who they don't know).

EDIT your first post to describe what 'the rider' did, no I, we, they, he or even the dog. You are dealing with this as 'the keeper'.

'a few days ago' clearly wasn't!

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 14:43


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ALI234
post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 15:13
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@Rookie, I'm a bit confused - the parking event happened 6 days ago on 30 July. Does that change anything?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 15:40
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Sorry, I read that scan of the ticket as June, my apologies.

In that case send the appeal to arrive on the 26th day after the parking event.

Edit the first post please.....


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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ALI234
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 12:16
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 16:40) *
Sorry, I read that scan of the ticket as June, my apologies.

In that case send the appeal to arrive on the 26th day after the parking event.

Edit the first post please.....



Thanks for your help so far, Rookie. The appeal was sent to arrive on the 26th day after the parking event. Appeal was obviously rejected, but no further correspondence sent - such as giving option to appeal formally.

Over the past few weeks the keeper received the following, and nothing more:

https://ibb.co/sv550vK
https://ibb.co/VwR9cPN
https://ibb.co/sRPSG5s

As far as the keeper is concerned, no Notice to Keeper has been issued.


What to do next?
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ostell
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 12:36
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To get the ducks all in a row contact the DVLA and ask for details of who asked for you details between the parking event and today.

SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gov.uk

They will repond saying they have problems but you will get the details.

So no NTK and no request to DVLA ? That puts paid to their claim
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Robbo223
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 12:39
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I would suggest a Subject Access Request of Armtrac, to include the photographs of your bike they will have taken. Knowing where the bike was parked and locating it on a map will help. A very detailed map is here, the Google signage images shown are roughly where it says GWITHIAN BRIDGE. The Rockpool cafe is shown as the Sandsifter on the map, but rest assured this is the same place. You can pull out the map by the +/- buttons top left of the web page.

This post has been edited by Robbo223: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 12:41
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ostell
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 12:47
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I wouldn't poke them. Wait for the DVLA response and then hit them with no POFA compliance and therefore no keeper liability

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 12:48
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The Rookie
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 13:13
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There is only one ‘appeal formally’ and you used that.....


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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ostell
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 13:25
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It is not an appeal, it will be a letter telling them to do one as they gave failed to invoke keeper liability
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The Rookie
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 13:51
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QUOTE (ALI234 @ Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 12:16) *
such as giving option to appeal formally.

Was responding to this...... He's used up the one appeal.

I agree with telling them to 'do one'.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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ALI234
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 14:02
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Understood, thanks all for the quick replies - much appreciated ! The keeper will request a SAR from DVLA and update you once issued.

Not really sure what a POFA compliance is but assuming that comes after DVLA confirmation.

Out of curiosity, how long would Armtrac have to contact DVLA? Don't see much point in requesting a SAR from them as this might tip them off?

@Robbo - the photos ARMTRAC took are in the first post, and the location a couple of posts down.

Cheers
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The Rookie
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 14:12
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You request your data using a SAR, you don't request a SAR!

Protection of Freedoms Act is what allows private parking companies to claim back invoices not paid by drivers (the people who incur the charges) from the vehicle keepers. This is a unique arrangament only for parking invoices and only if the parking company meets the strict requirements. If the keeper isn't liable and they don't know who was driving.......


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Tue, 17 Nov 2020 - 14:46
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With a windscreen ticket they have to issue the NTK within 56 days after the event and AFTER getting the keeper details from the DVLA. They MUST get the details from the DVLA. Failing to do either means they can't hold the keeper liable
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ALI234
post Tue, 24 Nov 2020 - 14:30
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Have just received confirmation from DVLA that there have been no requests to release any information from their records since the date of the alleged incident.

So to sum up:

ARMTRAC have failed to request keeper details from DVLA register within the 56 days
ARMTRAC have not sent a notice to keeper
They do not know who the driver was

So does anyone have any suggestions / template letter telling them to do one as they failed to invoke keeper liability? Also, who should I send it to - Armtrac or the recovery company (BW Legal)? Both?

Cheers!
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