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[NIP Wizard] Shaftesbury Ave Box PCN
GregTaxi
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 18:56
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2018
Date of the NIP: - 102 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 107 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - HIGH HOLBORN WC1 (SHAFTESBURY AVE)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Hired London taxi
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I am appealing this PCN as my intentions were to drive into the empty space the other side of the yellow box.

I am a London Taxi Driver and in 3 years of learning the streets of London (the knowledge) l, on a scooter and 3 years now driving a taxi I have never had a PCN as I am a very careful considerate driver.

In this instance I had the option of a space for me to drive into on the other side of the yellow box. Which I fully intended to drive into. As I pulled away from the traffic lights, this created enough space between the rear of my vehicle and a parked car (visible in the images) for a large Range Rover to accelerate very quickly from behind me, through the gap and undertake me at speed. This was very intimidating even in my fairly large taxi as I was concerned it would crash into me. The Range Rover then sped into the space leaving me stranded in the box junction.

When I entered the box junction my exit was clear as the Highway Code requests of me, the aggressive driver bullied me, endangering my customer and I. Leaving me stranded in the junction. No other lane to my right was clear either otherwise I would have used it.

I therefore ask you to cancel this PCN as the conditions in front of me changed after I entered the the Yellow box junction.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:47:08 +0000

Hello everyone,

Thanks for taking the time to read this post.

I have just joined and used the wizard tool, I didn’t realise a post would be made. What I have written is my draft letter of appeal, which tells the whole story really of what happened.

If anyone could help me I’d very much appreciate it. I can provide PCN number and vehicle number plate if anyone is kind enough to review it. I cannot view the video as Camden council website requires Internet Explorer 8. As you can imagine I drive a lot being a London Taxi driver but I do seem to have a vague memory of this Range Rover accelerating very quickly and taking the space available to me.

The offence was 3.5 months ago. I rent a taxi and I’m assuming the PCN was originally sent to the owner and now to me. I know a lot of people pin their hopes on this delay in receiving a PCN, but from what I have read so far it seems Camden council have 6months to issue a PCN?

Thanks in advance
Greg
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post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 18:56
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Churchmouse
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 19:31
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Get the video. It will be critical.

--Churchmouse
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 19:46
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If the video corroborates your tale then you have a good chance at adjudication. we need to see all pages of the PCN and the video use an external hosting site for the PCN. if you PM me the PCN number and your VRM I will try to get the video


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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 20:30
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Definitely get hold of the video, it will make or break your case.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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stamfordman
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 21:12
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It's not a criminal matter so you didn't need the NIP wizard.

I can get Camden videos posted but am on holiday so can't do until Friday earliest.

Try PMB or CP with details by personal message.
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 21:20
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If you PM me the details I can get hold of the video.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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GregTaxi
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 23:19
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Hi everyone thanks for the replies,

Is it safe for me to post a picture of the PCN as long as I blank out my name and address?

Thanks
Greg
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 08:53
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QUOTE (GregTaxi @ Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 00:19) *
Hi everyone thanks for the replies,

Is it safe for me to post a picture of the PCN as long as I blank out my name and address?

Thanks
Greg


Yes check about the forum we ask the same of everyone, indeed no real help can be given unless you do


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GregTaxi
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 10:03
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Ok here’s the PCN. Thanks for taking the time to look

Greg
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 10:35
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OP----the PCN is out of time unless you hire the vehicle. The usual process is that the original PCN will go to the hire company who will get it cancelled and pass liability to the hirer who gets a new PCN.

If this is the case, it would be prudent to get details of the 1st PCN from the hire company and any docs they sent the Council. Seems like an awfully long time before you got a PCN.

Looking at the photos, it seems you had space in front of the vehicle to exit the box. This contravention usually means you could not exit the box due to the presence of vehicles stopped in front of you.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 10:40
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GregTaxi
post Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 12:55
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Hello Mick,

Thanks for your reply.

I’ve spoken to the garage which I rent the taxi from and they say the PCN was issued in time but Camden council had a problem receiving the garages mail. It seems likely the fault of the garage rather than Camden council for the delay. So I don’t think I have a case with this and won’t pursue it.

I still haven’t had a chance to view the video, so can’t confirm if my vague memory of the Range Rover accelerating is true. But it’s really my only option so I’m going to appeal on those grounds. If anyone has internet explorer 8 or better and can view it I’d appreciate it.

My appeal will read;

I am appealing this PCN as my intentions were to drive into the empty space the other side of the yellow box.

I am a London Taxi Driver and in 3 years of learning the streets of London (the knowledge) l, on a scooter and 3 years now driving a taxi I have never had a PCN as I am a very careful considerate driver.

In this instance when entering the yellow box junction I had the option to drive into a space available to me on the other side. Which I fully intended to drive into. As I pulled away from the traffic lights, this created enough space between the rear of my vehicle and a parked car (visible in the images) for a large Range Rover to accelerate very quickly from behind me, through the gap and undertake me at speed. This was very intimidating even in my fairly large taxi as I was concerned it would crash into me. The Range Rover then sped into the space leaving me in an unavoidable position, stranded in the box junction.

When I entered the box junction my exit was clear as the Highway Code requests of me, the aggressive driver bullied me, endangering my customer and I. Leaving me stranded in the junction. No other lane to my right was clear either otherwise I would have used it.

I therefore ask you to cancel this PCN as the conditions in front of me changed after I entered the the Yellow box junction.


Would anyone suggest adding or changing any of this?

Thanks in advance for your time, I appreciate it.

Greg
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 13:58
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I have had a look and cannot access the video with crome firefox or windows 10 so a fault with Camden I think. The stills don't show enough. Go with your reps but tell them you cannot view the video and ask for a copy on DVD


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stamfordman
post Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 15:20
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 14:58) *
I have had a look and cannot access the video with crome firefox or windows 10 so a fault with Camden I think. The stills don't show enough. Go with your reps but tell them you cannot view the video and ask for a copy on DVD


Camden videos need an old system to view (I have a Windows XP which has obtained other Camden videos recently), which I have at home but away til Friday. It will keep until then I think - what is deadline?



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GregTaxi
post Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 15:54
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Deadline for the discounted rate is tomorrow. So I’ll appeal and state that I’m unable to view the footage

Thanks for your efforts, I’ll let you know how I get on
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stamfordman
post Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 16:09
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I'll PM you when I'm back.
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cp8759
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 17:09
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 16:20) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 14:58) *
I have had a look and cannot access the video with crome firefox or windows 10 so a fault with Camden I think. The stills don't show enough. Go with your reps but tell them you cannot view the video and ask for a copy on DVD


Camden videos need an old system to view (I have a Windows XP which has obtained other Camden videos recently), which I have at home but away til Friday. It will keep until then I think - what is deadline?

There's a workaround:

In Chrome right click and click "View page source", scoll down till you find this section:



Then put image/TicketAttachements1/20180512/CU50682684.WMV after https://contact.camden.gov.uk/pcn-challenge/ so you make the URL of the video as follows:

https://contact.camden.gov.uk/pcn-challenge.../CU50682684.WMV

Open this URL and it will download the video. I've also put it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3CHvjGwa2I

I have to say, it doesn't look good.


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 18:02
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You made progress in the right hand lane that lane was blocked due to stationary vehicles and would be at the time you entered the box, a contravention. Your defence, you attempted to move to the left but were prevented from doing so by undertaking traffic. That happened but you did not indicate or position your vehicle in a manner that would suggest you were moving left.

Would an adjudicator accept that a London taxi driver did not indicate, probably. Would an adjudicator accept that a London taxi driver drives in such a haphazard manner, not likely


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Churchmouse
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 21:42
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QUOTE
As I pulled away from the traffic lights, this created enough space between the rear of my vehicle and a parked car (visible in the images) for a large Range Rover to accelerate very quickly from behind me, through the gap and undertake me at speed. This was very intimidating even in my fairly large taxi as I was concerned it would crash into me. The Range Rover then sped into the space leaving me stranded in the box junction.

When I entered the box junction my exit was clear as the Highway Code requests of me, the aggressive driver bullied me, endangering my customer and I. Leaving me stranded in the junction. No other lane to my right was clear either otherwise I would have used it.

It's interesting how our vivid recollection of traumatic events can be so different from the cold, hard evidence... It's also interesting how much money the councils must be raking in from these kinds of contraventions--so many they can't even be bothered to zoom in on the number plates of all of the offenders!

--Churchmouse
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 08:55
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OP----I appreciate that your relationship with the garage should be good but I would still investigate the transfer of liability for the original PCN. The Council cannot touch the garage any more, because of the cancelled PCN, so they are in no danger of further action.

There appear to be two avenues which should be explored:-

1)The period of the hire (more or less than 6 months);

2)The terms of the agreement in relation to transfer of liability.

I take the view (other members might demur) that transfer of liability from the garage cannot occur if the hiring agreement has a term in excess of six months. This being the case the PCN is invalid AND served out of time.

Sect 66(7) here:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/66

Second, any transfer of liability from the garage must correspond as follows:-

2170551523

Liability for PCNs may be transferred where the contravention occurs at a time when the vehicle is the subject of a vehicle hire agreement of less than 6 months. However the document relied upon must satisfy The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000, which require a statement of liability signed by the hirer and the inclusion of the following details:

'A. Particulars of person signing statement of liability*

1. Full Name.

2. Date of birth.

3. Permanent Address.

4. Address at time of hiring (if different from 3 above and stay is likely to be more than two months from date of hiring).

5. Details of driving licence:

(a) country where issued (if not UK),

(b) serial number or driver's number,

© date of expiry (which should be no later than date specified in B7 below).

* Where the statement of liability is in Part II of form H, the full name and address of the person by or on whose behalf the statement of liability was signed should be supplied together with the date on which it was signed. If the person taking possession of the vehicle is not the same as the person by or on whose behalf the statement was signed, the full name of that person should also be supplied (if known).

B. Particulars of hiring agreements

1. Registration mark of vehicle hired under the hiring agreement.

2. Make and model of vehicle hired under the hiring agreement.

3. Registration mark of any vehicle substituted for the above during the currency of the hiring agreement.

4. Make and model of any vehicle substituted for the above during the currency of the hiring agreement.

5. Time and date of any change of vehicle.

6. Time and date of commencement of original hiring period.

7. Expected time and date of expiry of original hiring period.

8. Time and date of commencement of authorised extension of hiring period.

9. Expected time and date of expiry of authorised extension of hiring period.

10. Actual time and date of return of vehicle (or when vehicle returned out of hours time and date on which vehicle-hire firm next opened for business).

This requirement applies only to the vehicle hire firm's copy of the hiring agreement.'
---------------------------------------

So, if any of the above detail is missing, the ability to transfer liability is compromised and the Council cannot issue a new PCN.

In any event, having watched the video, my original comments apply ---if you were not blocked and had the ability to move forward, regardless of the proximity of vehicles to your left and right, then the contravention cannot occur.

EDIT ----------have a look at case 2180289926

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 18:57
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GregTaxi
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 11:22
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Hello everyone,

I had not received anything from Camden council. Despite receiving an email stating they’d respond within 10 days.

I’ve tried to chase them up on twitter. But other than that there is no way to contact them.

Then today I’ve received this letter? Still no way to contact them to explain that this is the first time I’ve heard from them?

So can anyone advise what I do now? I’m assuming I’ve lost the appeal but not received the letter. I’m happy just to pay the £65 now and erase it from memory. But no way am I paying £195!

Many thanks,

Greg
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