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Overtaking incident today near roundabout
infernox
post Wed, 5 Jun 2019 - 21:55
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Hi all, I was searching google for information about an incident that happened today and was led here, I hope you can provide me with more information on what to expect. Today at lunch time I was driving normally on a single carriage road and there was a slow Renault SUV in front of me. I was behind it for a good 3-4 minutes and the road had overtaking lane markings on it but I didn't get a chance to overtake due to oncoming traffic. The oncoming traffic cleared at the point we reached a roundabout, the car slowed down very much so I overtook it as soon as we left the roundabout. The overtaking lane markings were present on both sides of the roundabout and I've seen dozens of people do it before since its my daily work route. The Renault will still quite slow after the roundabout so there was a fair amount of distance between us now. Anyway I didn't really take any notice of it and kept driving as I didn't do anything dangerous, there was no oncoming traffic and a lot of space to overtake. A couple of bends later, suddenly the Renault approached behind at very fast speed and started tailing me very closely and aggressively. There was an old BMW in front of me and no space to overtook due to oncoming traffic but it seemed like he was road raging and angry at me overtaking him. We kept driving like this for a good 4-5 minutes past a few roundabouts and a police station too, until we got to a traffic light which turned red. So he was right behind me and got out of his car. It was a man in regular clothes who approached my car and starting knocking on my window. At this point I was concerned that this road raging man might behave aggressively with me. I opened the window and he started shouting 'why did you overtake me on a bend?', I replied that it was after the roundabout. He said no it was on the bend and you're not allowed to do that. I reiterated that it was after the roundabout at which point the light turned green and he walked away saying 'you'll get a summons in the post'. I was confused by this as it seemed like a regular guy who was angry and road raging. I started thinking more and wanted to clarify what he meant, the next traffic light turned red and he was still behind me, so this time I got out of the car. I told him that there were overtaking lane markings where I overtook him from and he said it doesn't matter, it was a bend. Then he showed me his dashcam on the front windscreen and said 'this is why I have this for, to record everything'. I asked him why he was speeding towards me very aggressively then tailed me closely, he said 'but I didn't overtake you though'. I said ok but I still overtook you after the roundabout, he didn't reply and instead showed me his card which said Community Support Officer on it. At this point the light started to turn green so I went back to my car. I've been thinking about it since. I definitely overtook him after the roundabout. I don't remember it perfectly because I wasn't expecting anything to happen, but the start of the overtaking manoeuvre may have been inside the roundabout boundaries. Must have been past the raised roundabout circle itself as I didn't feel the car hit it.

I've included some google street view images to visualise it.



You can see in the image above the roundabout in question. Both of us were going the same way the bus is but not over the raised roundabout circle (unsure if that matters, maybe rear tyre went over the flattest bit). Where the SUV is, is around the area I finished the overtake.



In the above image, the Renault must have been around the area where the bus is. I'm trying to visualise what the dashcam would show, I'm pretty sure it would show me cutting inside for the overtake over the first overtaking lane marking. Also you can see the double bend sign at this roundabout, the Renault sounded approaching me very fast at the second of these bends, I'm very sure he would have been speeding at this moment, maybe 50 in a 30 zone. I remember seeing him racing towards me after the first bend while I was beginning to turn at the second bend.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm unsure what to do to prepare for this. Should I start looking for a lawyer or should I talk to the Police and tell them my side of the story? Did I do something illegal and how bad was it? I'm still confused as to why he aggressively sped up to tail me so closely then got out of his car at the red lights to ask me why I overtook him, if he's in the right, why did he bother to do that? I'm guessing he was an off duty community support officer.

This post has been edited by infernox: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 - 22:32
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post Wed, 5 Jun 2019 - 21:55
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The Rookie
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 03:25
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I would do nothing at all right now, first see if anything actually comes of it at all.

He could submit a report direct or via 'operation snap' (Google it), someone will review the footage and decide whether anything actually happened worth pursuing.

Nothing you say you did is illegal per se, the relevant offence would be 'driving without due care and attention' which is defined as your driving standard being 'below that of a careful and competent driver'.


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666
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 08:52
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What exactly do you mean by "overtaking lane markings"?
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infernox
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 14:28
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 04:25) *
I would do nothing at all right now, first see if anything actually comes of it at all.

He could submit a report direct or via 'operation snap' (Google it), someone will review the footage and decide whether anything actually happened worth pursuing.

Nothing you say you did is illegal per se, the relevant offence would be 'driving without due care and attention' which is defined as your driving standard being 'below that of a careful and competent driver'.


Thank you for the information. Doesn't look like there is operation snap where I live when I googled it. I'll wait and see if anything comes out of it, I don't think the dashcam footage would show much unless its super wide angle since he placed it in the centre of the windscreen, it'd only capture my car when I overtook him over the lane markings. Just today I saw a taxi driver doing an overtaking manoeuvre on the same roundabout but he actually went to the other side of the roundabout to overtake (the slow driver went around the roundabout from the left and the taxi went from the right).

QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 09:52) *
What exactly do you mean by "overtaking lane markings"?


Sorry I was a bit flustered all day yesterday after it happened. I was talking about these markings below. I know that's not what its called. On the website where I got the image from it says:

"In this picture, the road marking shows that overtaking drivers or riders need to return to the left before they reach the hatch markings ahead. The hatch markings are designed to separate opposing streams of traffic; for example, approaching some junctions or dual carriageways."



This post has been edited by infernox: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 - 20:50
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666
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 14:55
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QUOTE (infernox @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 15:28) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 04:25) *
I would do nothing at all right now, first see if anything actually comes of it at all.

He could submit a report direct or via 'operation snap' (Google it), someone will review the footage and decide whether anything actually happened worth pursuing.

Nothing you say you did is illegal per se, the relevant offence would be 'driving without due care and attention' which is defined as your driving standard being 'below that of a careful and competent driver'.


Thank you for the information. Doesn't look like there is operation snap where I live (Leicester) when I googled it. I'll wait and see if anything comes out of it, I don't think the dashcam footage would show much unless its super wide angle since he placed it in the centre of the windscreen, it'd only capture my car when I overtook him over the lane markings. Just today I saw a taxi driver doing an overtaking manoeuvre on the same roundabout but he actually went to the other side of the roundabout to overtake (the slow driver went around the roundabout from the left and the taxi went from the right).

QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 09:52) *
What exactly do you mean by "overtaking lane markings"?


Sorry I was a bit flustered all day yesterday after it happened. I was talking about these markings below. I know that's not what its called. On the website where I got the image from it says:

"In this picture, the road marking shows that overtaking drivers or riders need to return to the left before they reach the hatch markings ahead. The hatch markings are designed to separate opposing streams of traffic; for example, approaching some junctions or dual carriageways."



In other words "No overtaking". Exactly the opposite of your interpretation
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TonyS
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 15:17
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QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 15:55) *
In other words "No overtaking". Exactly the opposite of your interpretation

Does it literally mean that? I thought those arrows were advance warning, we typically have them before a section of double white lines for example. In this particular case the hatched areas are marked with dashed rather than solid lines.
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666
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 15:37
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QUOTE (TonyS @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:17) *
QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 15:55) *
In other words "No overtaking". Exactly the opposite of your interpretation

Does it literally mean that? I thought those arrows were advance warning, we typically have them before a section of double white lines for example. In this particular case the hatched areas are marked with dashed rather than solid lines.

No, as infernox has suggested it literally means "overtaking drivers or riders need to return to the left before they reach the hazard ahead". However, it follows that an overtaking manoeuvre should not be started.
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Mr Rusty
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:22
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QUOTE
However, it follows that an overtaking manoeuvre should not be started.


it might if he was travelling in the same direction as the arrow, but if you look he was travelling against them, so they don't apply to him.
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Spandex
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:24
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Looking at the first image, the arrows are actually directing traffic approaching the roundabout from the other direction to move back to the left (so they're not mid-overtake as they reach the roundabout, presumably), so these aren't relevant to the OP.

If there are arrows directing traffic travelling in the direction the OP was going they're not visible in the photos. Streetview isn't much use as the latest images are from 2017 and no arrows are visible at all in either direction at that time. Presumably the OP is correct that overtaking is common there if they've felt the need to add the arrows relatively recently.

<Edit>
QUOTE (Mr Rusty @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 17:22) *
it might if he was travelling in the same direction as the arrow, but if you look he was travelling against them, so they don't apply to him.

Beat me to it..

This post has been edited by Spandex: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:26
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Spandex
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:35
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I take it back... The arrows are visible going back a few years - but they definitely don't apply to the OP.
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infernox
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:40
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 17:24) *
Looking at the first image, the arrows are actually directing traffic approaching the roundabout from the other direction to move back to the left (so they're not mid-overtake as they reach the roundabout, presumably), so these aren't relevant to the OP.

If there are arrows directing traffic travelling in the direction the OP was going they're not visible in the photos. Streetview isn't much use as the latest images are from 2017 and no arrows are visible at all in either direction at that time. Presumably the OP is correct that overtaking is common there if they've felt the need to add the arrows relatively recently.

<Edit>
QUOTE (Mr Rusty @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 17:22) *
it might if he was travelling in the same direction as the arrow, but if you look he was travelling against them, so they don't apply to him.

Beat me to it..


The lane markings haven't changed since when the streetview images were taken, I drive on that road everyday and its the same. You can go back to 2008 in street view and its the same markings there too. You've interpreted it the same way I have.

"In this picture, the road marking shows that overtaking drivers or riders need to return to the left before they reach the hatch markings ahead. The hatch markings are designed to separate opposing streams of traffic; for example, approaching some junctions or dual carriageways."

To me it means what it literally says, that if you're overtaking you need to complete it before you reach the hatch markings ahead. I was driving the opposite way of those arrows and I completed the overtake by driving over one of the markings.
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666
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:59
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QUOTE (infernox @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 17:40) *
QUOTE (Spandex @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 17:24) *
Looking at the first image, the arrows are actually directing traffic approaching the roundabout from the other direction to move back to the left (so they're not mid-overtake as they reach the roundabout, presumably), so these aren't relevant to the OP.

If there are arrows directing traffic travelling in the direction the OP was going they're not visible in the photos. Streetview isn't much use as the latest images are from 2017 and no arrows are visible at all in either direction at that time. Presumably the OP is correct that overtaking is common there if they've felt the need to add the arrows relatively recently.

<Edit>
QUOTE (Mr Rusty @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 17:22) *
it might if he was travelling in the same direction as the arrow, but if you look he was travelling against them, so they don't apply to him.

Beat me to it..


The lane markings haven't changed since when the streetview images were taken, I drive on that road everyday and its the same. You can go back to 2008 in street view and its the same markings there too. You've interpreted it the same way I have.

"In this picture, the road marking shows that overtaking drivers or riders need to return to the left before they reach the hatch markings ahead. The hatch markings are designed to separate opposing streams of traffic; for example, approaching some junctions or dual carriageways."

To me it means what it literally says, that if you're overtaking you need to complete it before you reach the hatch markings ahead. I was driving the opposite way of those arrows and I completed the overtake by driving over one of the markings.

Indeed. But whatever direction you're travelling, the one thing they do NOT mean is that overtaking is safe or encouraged, which is what you seemed to suggest originally with "I told him that there were overtaking lane markings where I overtook him" ...
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mickR
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 21:24
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QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 17:59) *
Indeed. But whatever direction you're travelling, the one thing they do NOT mean is that overtaking is safe or encouraged, which is what you seemed to suggest originally with "I told him that there were overtaking lane markings where I overtook him" ...


Overtaking anywhere could be unsafe and im not aware of overtaking being "encouraged" But as it isn't prohibited here and if the manoeuvre is carried out safely I don't see a problem.
If the OP endangers the slower car or oncoming traffic then yes, it would be unsafe.
Would be interesting to see the cam footage
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infernox
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 22:19
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QUOTE (mickR @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 22:24) *
QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 17:59) *
Indeed. But whatever direction you're travelling, the one thing they do NOT mean is that overtaking is safe or encouraged, which is what you seemed to suggest originally with "I told him that there were overtaking lane markings where I overtook him" ...


Overtaking anywhere could be unsafe and im not aware of overtaking being "encouraged" But as it isn't prohibited here and if the manoeuvre is carried out safely I don't see a problem.
If the OP endangers the slower car or oncoming traffic then yes, it would be unsafe.
Would be interesting to see the cam footage


Yes I'd also be interested in seeing the cam footage. I think I did it safely and left a good distance between the cars. I've been thinking about his perspective and he may have got startled that it happened so soon after the roundabout and got angry. Well even if nothing comes out of it, I still learnt from this situation having never had any incidents like this before and understand more about the driving situations like this (to stop being impatient).
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cp8759
post Sat, 8 Jun 2019 - 19:34
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Did you get his staff number? A CSO out of uniform has no powers but frankly even a warranted officer, in the circumstances, should just drive normally and submit the video via the normal channels if he feels like it. What he did clearly amounted to road rage and I would say you have grounds to make a formal complaint, regardless of anything else.


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Aiden
post Sat, 8 Jun 2019 - 21:38
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To be frank where I live, I've had it too in the past with boy racers around me causing havoc on the roads. If I've managed to line up with them alongside traffic lights and put my window down, I've given them a very "polite" description about their driving and pointed to my dash cam, to then point it to their face before stating how this will be given to the police.

I've actually never given it to the police, it's more of an empty threat as their driving tends to become far less dangerous.

On saying that, if it does get reported you pretty much have two weeks to wait for a letter (if the vehicles under your name). As stated it would probably be reported for driving without due care and attention. The Met normally require 2 minutes before and 2 minutes after an incident, so this CSO could possible throw himself under the bus if his speed to catch you up was hitting 50 and your local police force require a similar time frame.

In likelihood, nothing would most likely happen.

This post has been edited by Aiden: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 - 21:40
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infernox
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 13:53
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Thanks for the replies Aiden and cp8759. I didn't get his staff number, it happened quite fast, he just showed me his card then put it back down. Some people I have talked to have said it might just be a threat and it definitely worked as you said Aiden. It might not have been 50 but definitely over 40 as me and the old BMW in front of me were just under 30, he caught up to me quickly then tail-gated me closely. Would have been 15-20 seconds after I overtook him, maybe 30 seconds. I did say to him when I went to his car why were you tailing me so aggressively and he just replied 'but I didn't overtake you though'.

If it is driving without due care and attention, what would I be looking at? Would I still need to go to court? I have no points on my license with no speeding incidents before either, could they offer me a driving awareness course (not sure if they still do these)?

Edit: just had a look at they call it 'What’s Driving Us Courses' now. What’s Driving Us? is a half-day course designed for clients referred for reasons including: offences relating to driving without due care and attention, control or consideration, including tailgating; traffic light offences; crossing a solid white line; stopping, overtaking or failing to give precedence in zebra/puffin/pelican areas; stopping at school gates; and contravening a no-entry sign. Clients are referred to What’s Driving Us? as an alternative to a Fixed Penalty Notice.

This post has been edited by infernox: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 13:55
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Aiden
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 22:40
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QUOTE (infernox @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 14:53) *
Thanks for the replies Aiden and cp8759. I didn't get his staff number, it happened quite fast, he just showed me his card then put it back down. Some people I have talked to have said it might just be a threat and it definitely worked as you said Aiden. It might not have been 50 but definitely over 40 as me and the old BMW in front of me were just under 30, he caught up to me quickly then tail-gated me closely. Would have been 15-20 seconds after I overtook him, maybe 30 seconds. I did say to him when I went to his car why were you tailing me so aggressively and he just replied 'but I didn't overtake you though'.

If it is driving without due care and attention, what would I be looking at? Would I still need to go to court? I have no points on my license with no speeding incidents before either, could they offer me a driving awareness course (not sure if they still do these)?

Edit: just had a look at they call it 'What’s Driving Us Courses' now. What’s Driving Us? is a half-day course designed for clients referred for reasons including: offences relating to driving without due care and attention, control or consideration, including tailgating; traffic light offences; crossing a solid white line; stopping, overtaking or failing to give precedence in zebra/puffin/pelican areas; stopping at school gates; and contravening a no-entry sign. Clients are referred to What’s Driving Us? as an alternative to a Fixed Penalty Notice.


If it was taken further,one of the following could occur depending on how serious the police deem it:

1. Nothing - two weeks will past from the day after the incident(and if you'r the registered keeper) your in the clear. Or:
2. A NOIP comes through the post from the Police asking for the details of the driver (your not admitting any offence here, but you need to give the required details)
3. On the basis 2 happens then either:
3.1 -> Nothing happens after. The police drop it
3.2 -> Course is offered. You simply pay and attend and as such you don't gain points
3.3 -> If its serious, a FPN for 3 points and £100
3.3 -> if its very very serious, the matter is referred to the Magistrates

Really comes down to how careless and unsafe the manoevere is deemed

This post has been edited by Aiden: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 22:43
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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 15:13
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I would suggest NFA, because if challenged the CSO might be asked to provide the full video, and upon reviewing it his employers might not be overly impressed with his unauthorised, off-duty "pursuit" driving.


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infernox
post Sun, 23 Jun 2019 - 13:09
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Hi guys,

Just a quick update. Been over 2 weeks now and not received anything in the post. Does that mean I'm in the clear?
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