Section 172 Stitch Up - strange Court experience! Options

[mozzini]

Hi all, this is my first post here and I'll be grateful for any advice.

I've just been to Magistrates Court for speeding (58 in a 50 zone) and failing to provide details of the driver.

This court experience was very strange, as I'll explain..

Long story short, my wife and I do very high mileage, drive both our cars and we cannot be 100% sure which of us was driving on the day of the alleged offence and therefore I chose to go to court to explain why.

The first strange thing was, as I was in the Court waiting area, a very nice lady came out to speak to me. I was sitting very close to 2 men who were chatting to each other and the waiting room was very quiet. The lady advised that she was there to guide me through the court experience and advise on points of law but she was not involved in the decision on whether I was guilty or not.

She then proceeded to offer me the opportunity of pleading guilty before the hearing as I would get a 33% discount on the fine! She also asked me to explain the reasons I was pleading not guilty and asked me the sequence of events that had happened before the court hearing. I explained that I had written 3 letters to the Speed Camera Unit asking for evidence that would help me identify the driver, but they only provided unclear photographs. She also informed me that the speeding fine is now dropped as the case is now a Section 172 failure to provide driver details.

During our conversation, the 2 men sitting nearby stopped talking and were listening intently to what I and the lady were saying. Another lady then came out and started talking to the 2 men who I then found out were the prosecution witnesses, namely the speed camera operator and the document collator for the Camera Unit! She told the camera ohe was not needed as the speeding fine was dropped.

The second strange thing..

When I entered the court, the prosecution basically offered nothing...their only concern was that I had received the NIP, which I obviously had. He then said to the Magistrate that he'd like to remind him that under Common Law, it is law that the registered keeper of a vehicle knows who is driving the vehicle at all times!

I explained to the Magistrate my very good reasons for not knowing who was driving and he said he understood that but under the law, the registered keeper must know who was driving! I was totally confused now and told the Magistrate that under Section 172, a registered keeper is NOT guilty if he has made a 'reasonable effort' to identify the driver and he accepted that I had made a reasonable effort. He then said again that regardless of that fact, under the (something I could not make out) Law, the registered keeper must know who was driving and that is all he can go off. He then asked if I had anything more to say, twice.

They then went off to make a decision and came back with the guilty verdict.

It was all very strange and they did not seem to be taking Section 172 into account, but some other law of which I didn't quite get when they mentioned it.

I am now considering appealing, but would be grateful of any advice - has anyone else had a similar sort of experience?
Thanks

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[andy_foster]

Off the top of my head, there is an application for the High Court to amend the case stated that you can make when lodging the case stated appeal. However it is a long time since I have run a case stated appeal.

If you are not a formidable advocate, the trick is to present your arguments in detail in writing and call it a skeleton argument. Between us, we can almost certainly help you with that. However, what we cannot do it ensure that you do not get a perverse judgment from the High Court, although a well written submission skeleton argument ought to make it more awkward for them to twist the facts and law.

[mozzini]

Why would you be going to the Crown Prosecution Service, perhaps CPS doesn’t mean what you think it means.

The CPS prosecuted me? They will want costs I assume, should the case stated go against me?

[The Rookie]

Yes but your going to the high court to make a decision on your appeal, not the CPS.

As it’s by way of case stated any costs from the CPS would be minimal.

[southpaw82]

As it’s by way of case stated any costs from the CPS would be minimal.

How so?

[cp8759]

I'm still unsure of the next steps anyway, is it a matter of completing the relevant forms and waiting for a court date or are there any other steps I need to complete? I've read the Practice Direction, but it seems to be written for legal professionals that already know the process rather than an individual representing themselves.

We can help you with the procedural side, but only you can decide whether to proceed. If you want to go ahead, you will need to file the appeal with the High Court and pay the appropriate fee. There is a strict deadline for doing this.

Is there not a huge discrepency between what the CPS have said in their statement of case:

"We unanimously found the Applicant guilty based on the short period of time between the offence and the initial request to provide information, and the applicants credibility, and not solely based on the Applicant not keeping records".

and what the legal adviser to the magistrates initially said in his/her emailed reply to OP (see post 36 above):

"The defendant accepted that he does not keep any records of who is driving the vehicle and that it is regularly driven by multiple persons including himself, his wife and his son. It is on that basis that we unanimously find the defendant guilty."

I would be inviting the High Court to try and reconcile those two statements. I would further suggest the High Court should infer that the difference is likely due to an improper attempt to frustrate the appeal.

I don't really disagree with any of that. If you want to proceed, we'd have to look at what andy_foster says about amending the case stated.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 - 09:06

[The Rookie]

As it’s by way of case stated any costs from the CPS would be minimal.

How so?

No witnesses should be needed, there would be minimal need even for attendance.

[cp8759]

As it’s by way of case stated any costs from the CPS would be minimal.

How so?

No witnesses should be needed, there would be minimal need even for attendance.

I think the CPS might want to send counsel along, they're not going to just roll over.

[Irksome]

So what is the ballpark figure for the OP to consider?

[cp8759]

So what is the ballpark figure for the OP to consider?

How long is a piece of string?

For a half-day hearing I'd expect something between £500 and £1000 + VAT, but then the CPS might send someone whose in-house which might be cheaper.

[ben draynor]

Everyone on this thread seems to agree that the case stated doesn't properly reflect OP's simple argument that he was convicted for not keeping records (based on what what he was told at the hearing and in the initial reasons) and that this was an error of law.

There is now separately a dispute of fact as to the reasons for his conviction.

Both points are ignored in the case stated.

Does OP have the ability to ask the magistrates court to further amend the case stated?

If he can't ask for any more changes, how is he going to argue this in the High Court? Should he (as per Andy Foster above), make an application for the High Court to amend the case stated when lodging the case stated appeal? And / or should he get the point across by submitting an evidence bundle containing (i) the initial written reasons and (ii) a witness statement as to what happened at the hearing? Will the court allow him to even argue these two points if not properly touched on in the case stated? Looking at the rules for case stated appeals, it seems no evidence can be submitted and witness statements are very rare.

If OP can't amend the statement of case and can't submit evidence/witness statement, how is he going to win the appeal?

I wonder if there is any scope for considering judicial review on the basis that the court has adopted an unfair procedure by drafting a case stated that obfuscates the key points? The costs and complexity probably make this not a viable route.

Similarly, I wonder if there is any possible mileage in making a formal complaint to the magistrates court itself (not about the conviction obviously) but about the change between the written reasons and case stated. The argument would be that this change occurred for a potentially improper purpose (e.g. protecting reputations or intentionally frustrating a valid appeal) and possibly even with a hint of dishonesty. I suspect however this is a long shot and have no experience with this complaint process, but would it do any harm to chuck one in? If so, the process is here: https://www.gov.uk/complain-judge-magistrat...ribunal-coroner

Again, good luck OP - I am invested in this case now!

This post has been edited by ben draynor: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 - 23:44

[mozzini]

Everyone on this thread seems to agree that the case stated doesn't properly reflect OP's simple argument that he was convicted for not keeping records (based on what what he was told at the hearing and in the initial reasons) and that this was an error of law.

There is now separately a dispute of fact as to the reasons for his conviction.

Both points are ignored in the case stated.

Does OP have the ability to ask the magistrates court to further amend the case stated?

If he can't ask for any more changes, how is he going to argue this in the High Court? Should he (as per Andy Foster above), make an application for the High Court to amend the case stated when lodging the case stated appeal? And / or should he get the point across by submitting an evidence bundle containing (i) the initial written reasons and (ii) a witness statement as to what happened at the hearing? Will the court allow him to even argue these two points if not properly touched on in the case stated? Looking at the rules for case stated appeals, it seems no evidence can be submitted and witness statements are very rare.

If OP can't amend the statement of case and can't submit evidence/witness statement, how is he going to win the appeal?

I wonder if there is any scope for considering judicial review on the basis that the court has adopted an unfair procedure by drafting a case stated that obfuscates the key points? The costs and complexity probably make this not a viable route.

Similarly, I wonder if there is any possible mileage in making a formal complaint to the magistrates court itself (not about the conviction obviously) but about the change between the written reasons and case stated. The argument would be that this change occurred for a potentially improper purpose (e.g. protecting reputations or intentionally frustrating a valid appeal) and possibly even with a hint of dishonesty. I suspect however this is a long shot and have no experience with this complaint process, but would it do any harm to chuck one in? If so, the process is here: https://www.gov.uk/complain-judge-magistrat...ribunal-coroner

Again, good luck OP - I am invested in this case now!

Thank you for your comments, the complaints process is not something I'd considered or realised was available to me.

I've had such excellent advice from this forum and strongly believe the court should be called to task about the way my case has been dealt with. However, I'm really not sure I've got the appetite to fight this any further and may very reluctantly have to just accept the decision.

My wife and I are trying to purchase a property and the risk of possibly losing another couple of thousand pounds is not a risk I really want to take at this moment in time.

From the advice I've received, I seem to have a reasonable chance of winning the appeal, but again, it comes down to the Magistrates decision and I would think the appeal would have to be absolutely bulletproof for one Magistrate to overtirn another Magistrate's decision.

I'm reluctant to leave this go as I truly feel wronged, so I suppose I'm waiting until the time limit before I make a final decision on whether to fight on or not. If I decide not to, then I might well consider a complaint.

Thanks again everyone.

[TonyS]

Isn't an appeal by Case Stated heard in the High Court, by a judge? As opposed to lay Magistrates advised by their legal advisor.

[southpaw82]

Isn't an appeal by Case Stated heard in the High Court, by a judge? As opposed to lay Magistrates advised by their legal advisor.

Almost. It’s normally a divisional court of two High Court judges.

[cp8759]

I'm reluctant to leave this go as I truly feel wronged, so I suppose I'm waiting until the time limit before I make a final decision on whether to fight on or not. If I decide not to, then I might well consider a complaint.

You can't make a complaint about a judicial decision, you either accept it or appeal. Be careful with the time limit, if you let us know on the last day it is unlikely we'll have enough time to draft the forms for you.

[Taffer1]

What was/is the deadline? Any updates?