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Council Parking Ticket - No signage
keycare
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 12:04
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Hi All,

A parking ticket was placed on the windscreen. The driver was of the opinion that there were no parking restrictions applying to the location due to there being no signs at all; council thinks otherwise.

If one turns left at the T junction, into a no-through-road, a few yards down that road there is a pay-and-display machine with a sign (I will get a clearer picture of the sign).

The signs cannot be seen when turning right at the T junction or parking anywhere along that road, in fact there no signs relating to parking anywhere along the road if you turn right at the T junction, you can then re-join the main Mumbles road via 2 routes having never passed a parking sign. The google street view is pretty accurate.

An initial appeal was submitted using the council's online form stating that there were no signs indicating a parking restriction and photographs that were taken at the time the ticket was discovered were uploaded via the appeal form.

A letter was subsequently received denying the appeal.

All redacted images and google street-view screen grabs are here https://photos.app.goo.gl/ddF49vg8spCy4Dv19

Are there grounds for appeal?

Many thanks,


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post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 12:04
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Neil B
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 12:47
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QUOTE (keycare @ Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 13:04) *
The google street view is pretty accurate.

Link?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 13:12
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https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5740005,-3....6384!8i8192


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 13:36
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So where did you park. Any council pics? Where did you walk after parking?

They cunningly hidden the board and machine in a plant bed. There are two in fact along the left side.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 13:57
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OP, this is not a theoretical exercise regarding what would happen if a motorist drove down Cornwall Place, The Mumbles, turned right and stopped in what appears to be a marked space on the left!

This is about real events please.

So, the driver ***** and parked ****** after having turned ****.
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keycare
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 01:09
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The driver drove down Cornwall Place, turned right, parked up on the left hand side next to the tree, got out, checked for signage, saw that there was none, walked along the promenade (right) toward Mumbles pier. Later, walked back toward the car, spotted ticket, looked again for signage, took pictures of the lack of signage, saw that there was a Pay and Display machine further down the road (left at T-Junction at the end of Cornwall Place), noted that there was no indication as to which part of the road was subject to the parking restriction. Got back in the car and drove along Promenade Terrace, turned right back onto Mumbles Road.

This post has been edited by keycare: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 01:10
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hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 06:34
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Very concise and clear.

If there are no signs indicating that this is a car park and stating its conditions of use between your entry and the parking place then you cannot lose.

At present the council must prove its case and on the basis of your account and GSV they cannot.
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localdriver
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 09:28
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An anomaly appears to be that the PCN refers to Oyster (Foreshore) Car Park, the OP's links are to Oystermouth Car Park, about two and a half miles apart.
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Neil B
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 10:57
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QUOTE (localdriver @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 10:28) *
An anomaly appears to be that the PCN refers to Oyster (Foreshore) Car Park, the OP's links are to Oystermouth Car Park, about two and a half miles apart.

I had that problem yesterday, getting GSV.
So we may well have 'wrong location' too.

edit. Ah no; it's google maps that's wrong in map mode.

--

Keycare.
Can we stop this 'the driver' nonsense. Are you the owner and RK of the vehicle?



--




This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 10:59


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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keycare
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 12:40
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No, I am not the RK or the driver but I was present at the time.

Sorry, I though it best not to be incriminating in a public forum if a potential court case was to come about.

Thanks for the help everyone. I wondered if anyone can supply a link to the regulations regarding the relevant car park signage requirements.

Cheers.

This post has been edited by keycare: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 12:41
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DancingDad
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 14:08
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Wont be a court case, worst is it will be a hearing with an independent adjudicator.
Likely by telephone.

According to this sign (to the left of Cornwall) some of the area is car park.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5741575,-3....6384!8i8192
My issue is as OP's, how the hell does one know ?
The clear signs that say Pay and Display etc ?........that all seem to be non existent.
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Neil B
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 14:46
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QUOTE (keycare @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 13:40) *
I though it best not to be incriminating

You can't be as 'owner' is legally liable.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 15:08) *
My issue is as OP's, how the hell does one know ?
The clear signs that say Pay and Display etc ?........that all seem to be non existent.

And that you are even in a car park or entering one.

QUOTE (keycare @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 13:40) *
the regulations regarding the relevant car park signage requirements.

There are none.
Signs just need to clearly convey the rules, i.e. ts&cs, making your responsibility to pay clear.

and probably to tell you that you are entering such a car park.

Nothing they've done cuts it.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 14:41


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 09:14
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QUOTE (keycare @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 13:40) *
No, I am not the RK or the driver but I was present at the time.

Sorry, I though it best not to be incriminating in a public forum if a potential court case was to come about.

Thanks for the help everyone. I wondered if anyone can supply a link to the regulations regarding the relevant car park signage requirements.

There are no such regulations: James Brokenshire MP has a power, under section 35B of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/35B to make regulations about this, but neither he nor any of his predecessors have ever bothered.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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keycare
post Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 19:08
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Wow, no regulations!? Does that make things open to wide interpretations?

Still, I can't see how they could assert that 'at the place where you were parked has been visited and the signs were correct', when there are no signs near where I parked.

So I'll wait until the RK received the NTO form and instruct what to do next.

Thanks for the pointers everyone.

Wow, no regulations!? Does that make things open to wide interpretations?

Still, I can't see how they could assert that 'at the place where you were parked has been visited and the signs were correct', when there are no signs near where I parked.

So I'll wait until the RK received the NTO form and instruct what to do next.

Thanks for the pointers everyone.
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cp8759
post Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 21:22
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QUOTE (keycare @ Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 20:08) *
Wow, no regulations!? Does that make things open to wide interpretations?

Adjudicators have developed case law which suggests, as a minimum, there must be a terms and conditions board which outlines charges, restrictions, contraventions and so on.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 21:43
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QUOTE (keycare @ Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 20:08) *
Wow, no regulations!? Does that make things open to wide interpretations?...…….


No regulations in terms of prescribed signs.
But that does not remove the common law duty of fairness ie, they cannot simply charge you without some warning and appropriate signs.
I would also query whether LATOR S18 applies ?
They may call it a car park and have an order specifying that but to all intents and purposes, it is a road.
Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, nothing to say it is not a road, LATOR should apply.
If only in respect of a suitable Car Park entry board.
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