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Bus Lane Contravention - Oxford Street
notsquonk
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 00:11
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Hello again

NotSquonk again am afraid and once again it was other half driving into Manchester on evening of 16th Oct to take daughter to the theatre.

Have checked video already and it is clear that she turns left at the lights onto Oxford Street.

It looks like MCC have improved the service of their PCNs as I have been sitting on this for a week or more (sorry for delay).

So, what am wondering about is poor signage, especially on turning left onto Oxford Street at this point. Does anyone know if there are any 'No left turn onto Oxford Street' signs at this location? I hardly ever visit Manchester these days other than on the tram.

Laptop battery about to expire. Will scan their letter and post ASAP.

Key dates/info though:
detection date: 16/10
PCN posting: 19/10 (received c. 23/10)
Contravention: Bus Lane - Oxford Street (Whitworth Street West to Chepstow Street)

By my calculation I have until Tuesday 6th to respond.

Many thanks in advance.

Regards
NotS
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post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 00:11
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cp8759
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 16:31
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There is signage but it's very poor. Post the video.


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notsquonk
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 09:50
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Found the MCC video link via the post of another party on pepipoo. Can't find it again now. When I google it I get to a page that shows only photos. This seems strange. Are there two pages or could they have removed the video maybe? If anyone can share the link with video option that'd be great. Will keep looking though.

Also, if I do find the video link it looks like I'll have to provide the PCN Number/car reg for anyone else to see it. If so am I ok doing so?

Thanks
notsquonk
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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 10:45
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QUOTE (notsquonk @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 09:50) *
Found the MCC video link via the post of another party on pepipoo. Can't find it again now. When I google it I get to a page that shows only photos. This seems strange. Are there two pages or could they have removed the video maybe? If anyone can share the link with video option that'd be great. Will keep looking though.

Also, if I do find the video link it looks like I'll have to provide the PCN Number/car reg for anyone else to see it. If so am I ok doing so?

Thanks
notsquonk

You can post whatever you want (you never know, someone might decide to pay the PCN for you), but if you PM me the details of the PCN I can put the video on youtube so you don't have to share the PCN number.


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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 16:27
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Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NJe_GEQMJo

You can clearly see that you turned left from Whitworth street, and you would only see the regulatory signs once you were committed to the turn.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 16:27


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notsquonk
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 22:41
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As promised, PCN 'scans' 1 of 2

This post has been edited by notsquonk: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 22:43
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notsquonk
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 23:16
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PCN 'scans' 2 of 2

(2nd attempt!!!)

So, next question: if I challenge this on what grounds should i do so?

BTW, I wasn't there. My wife driving so am filling in blanks here. From Google streetmap images though my own opinion is that this is a bit of a trap. Spotted one very poor, minimal sign on Whitworth Street approach to junction. Not as bold as the sign on Oxford Street at the junction which would be very hard to see even in daylight, nevermind in the dark of an October evening.

Thoughts most welcome please (and thanks to cp8759 for multi-media skills - how did you scrape the vid onto youtube?)

cheers
notsquonk

second lot of scans not arriving. What's going on?
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cp8759
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 01:29
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I wrote some draft representations for Whitworth street into Oxford Road traffic, if you have a look on the forum you should be able to find them. Post a copy on here adapted to your case and we'll advise on any suitable amendments.

There's very limited upload space on the forum, upload the scans to imgur.com and post a link.

As for the video, there's a google chrome extension called flash video downloader.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 01:30


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notsquonk
post Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 16:08
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Hi all

Managed to find this one below, cp8759, you'd prepared for appeal (which although tweaked am sure you'll recognise as your own work).
Am I also OK using same as basis for reps? Have tried to adapt it for that purpose:

By my calculation today is my last day so quick attempt here to gain confidence in going to reps. All advice most welcome. If I don't hear back I think am confident enough to submit.

One thing to add is I've written this based on online research and from speaking with my wife. I have not been to the location to check the sign situation myself. So, for example, whether sign 619 on Whitworth street has been modified with exemptions I know not for certain. Anyone know?

I presume cut-off is midnight, not some other arbitrary time like 'close of business' ???

Many thanks
notsquonk

"
1:- The alleged contravention did not occur;

I wish to make representations that the signage was inadequate to convey the restriction, contrary to LATOR1996 regulation 18.

The authority has provided no evidence of signage in place. My own research leads me to submit as follows.
On approach to Oxford St from Whitworth St my wife, who was driving at the time, did not see any signs warning of a bus lane restriction. On checking myself after the fact there appears to be a map type directional sign with the motor vehicles prohibited sign (sign 619). I contend that whilst navigating in a busy city centre only peripheral attention would be given to this sign, with main attention being on the approaching traffic lights and pedestrians in the vicinity. I now know from subsequent research that the prohibited vehicle sign alone does not signify a bus lane restriction. Apparently with the addition of a plate listing exemptions it may be used for this purpose. Even if my wife had seen this sign on its own it could not reasonably have made her aware of a bus lane restriction.

The first sign that correctly indicates the restriction is at the junction with Oxford Street but this sign faces along the length of Oxford Road (directly away from Oxford Street). It is therefore not clearly visible from traffic either waiting or approaching from Whitworth Street. Further more it is hidden by the traffic lights until a driver is committed to making the turn when it is too late and also unsafe to take corrrective action. It is placed and orientated in such a manner as to warn vehicles travelling straight on along from Oxford Road but not for vehicles turning left out of Whitworth Street.

The placement of this sign failing at regulation 18 of LATOR 1996.
"
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 16:43
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That's fine


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cp8759
post Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 17:21
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That'll do, post their rejection when you get it.


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notsquonk
post Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 17:53
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hi all

Reps submitted as above but with additional statement basically saying that evidence of left turn not provided/uploaded as video to confirm this is already on your (MCC's) web site.

Many thanks. Will be in touch.

Regards
notsquonk
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notsquonk
post Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 19:07
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Received a letter from MCC today. Guess what it said? In two words, reps rejected.

Will post the letter shortly. Be pleased to hear opinions as to whether is worth going to adjudicator. On which not btw, if adjudication fails does the penalty remain at ÂŁ30 or go to the 'full amount' of ÂŁ60?

Regards
notsquonk
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cp8759
post Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 19:52
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An appeal is against the ÂŁ60 penalty (otherwise everybody would appeal everything), let's see the rejection and then we can give an estimate of the likely chances of success.


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notsquonk
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 00:14
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Right then
Finally managed to reduce file size (and dimensions) of these scans. Let's see if they're readable on the site.

Regards
notSquonk
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cp8759
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 01:39
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Will draft an appeal later, they've ignored most of your reps and just given a stock response so you have a strong case.


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Pessa
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 13:14
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Haha biggrin.gif rolleyes.gif @Notsquonk, I think we're in the same camp. I had gone there to campaign for black organ donors and previously, before this, I have always used that part of the road and never had a ticket but that was years ago. The changes must be fairly recent.

I got the same letter and appealed it and I got the same refusal letter as you did. I went back before I appealed and took pictures of all approaches during the day. I intend to go there at night, at about the same time, to take pictures too, before going to the adjudicator because at night with the dark and the lights, motorists are always very careful not to have an accident.

On approach to that junction before you turn left at the traffic lights, there's only a white round sign with a red line going through it and an arrow pointing right which means "do not to turn right".

I think your wife was the car behind mine that evening. I will go and take the pictures this week and share with you if you want.
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cp8759
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 16:52
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Draft appeal, keep all italics and underlined textexactly as per the below

You might want to write "see grounds of appeal attachment" in the reasons box and put your grounds into a pdf document

----------------
I submit that the alleged contravention did not occur, due to inadequate signage. I do not dispute that the signs employed by the council comply with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, but I aver that the signs nonetheless fail to adequately convey the restrictions.

On the evening of the alleged contravention my wife was travelling along Whitworth Street and turned left onto Oxford Street, it is my contention that the signage, when approached from this direction of travel, is inadequate and fails to meet the requirements of regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 which provides, in so far as is relevant, that:

"Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b) the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force
"

While there are advance warning signs along Whitworth street, these signs do not convey the restrictions provided for the the Traffic Regulation Order, furthermore advance warning signs do not create any restriction as such, restrictions are only conveyed by regulatory signs placed at, or as close as possible to, the point where the restrictions commence.

The regulatory signs installed by the council face traffic travelling along Oxford Street, and are not visible to traffic turning left onto Oxford Street from Whitworth Street until a motorist has already committed to the turn. The following image illustrates the visibility of the regulatory signs for traffic travelling from Whitworth Street:



The regulatory signs on Oxford Street convey that a "no motor vehicles" restriction is in force from 6 am to 9 pm, except for buses, taxis and permit holders. There are no signs on Whitworth street that accurately convey this restriction and even if a motorist turning left were to see the signs on Oxford Street, it would by then be far too late to take an alternative route: reversing or performing a u-turn in the middle of a busy junction is not a real option and it may well open up the driver to prosecution from the police for driving without due care and attention.

For the contravention to occur, the motorist must have a lawful route open to him that allows him to avoid committing the contravention, at the point in time when he is given adequate notice of what the restrictions actually are. There is no burden on motorists to avoid taking a route on the off-chance that taking a particular route might be subject to certain unknown restrictions at some point further along the road. The situation might be different if the advance warning signs on Whitworth Street adequately conveyed the restrictions provided for in the Traffic Regulation Order, but that is not the case in this instance.

Furthermore, if the council contends that there is no requirement for the actual nature and timings of the restrictions to be properly conveyed to motorists travelling from Whitworth Street, this is tantamount to suggesting the contravention can be sustained on the basis of the advance warning signs alone, i.e. it would be a contravention to turn left from Whitworth Street and travel north along Oxford Street even if there were no regulatory signs at all on Oxford Street, clearly this cannot be right. But it also cannot be right for the contravention to be based on signage which a motorist wouldn't be able to see until he has already committed to turning left into Oxford Street.

One has to ask, if the restrictions are adequately conveyed, how would the driver of an exempt vehicle, such as a taxi driver who was delivering a customer to Manchester from a different city, know that the exemption applies and turning left onto Oxford Street is permitted? The simple answer is the driver would have no notice of the exemption, and he would have to either, out of an abundance of caution, drive straight ahead, or turn left and take the risk (at that point unknowable to him) that he might commit a contravention. This sort of ambiguity cannot have been what Parliament intended when it spoke of "securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road".

Therefore because the signage employed by the highways authority does not adequately convey the nature and timing of the restrictions to motorists turning left from Whitworth Street, and because no regulatory signs are visible to motorists turning left from Whitworth Street until it it too late to take an alternative route, the Highways Authority has failed to discharge its duties under regulation 18 above and the alleged contravention did not occur.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 16:53


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notsquonk
post Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 16:57
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Many thanks cp8759 for creating this piece.

I have submitted my appeal with only the tiniest of changes. Couple of grammatical ones which make me wonder if you did them on purpose to make sure people actually read it.
wink.gif

Will see now what comes of it and of course I'll let you know.

Your help much appreciated.

Regards
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cp8759
post Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 13:05
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Post the council case summary once they upload it to the tribunal, they should do so at least three days before a decision is due.


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