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Alleged Bus Lane Contravention - Oxford Road Manchester
overlook
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 15:53
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Hi

New to the forum as I've only just received a PCN and found your site....nice place to be!

The alleged contravention is much posted on here - Oxford Road Manchester (Nelson Street to Hathersage Road)

Think the only representation I can make is that bloody stupid signage.
I didn't know I had done it until I received the charge.

Detection date: 19/01/18
PCN date of posting: 01/02/18

Any help or advice welcome.

Ps....is it legal to post the actual CCTV shot on this site?

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post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 15:53
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 19:33
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QUOTE (TryMar @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 19:28) *
Hi,

I was looking for some help for this absurd PCN and ended up in this forum. I can quite clearly see that many others like me are in the same situation.

First time driving in Manchester, religiously following the navigator's instruction (2016 version) and driven the car as usual, the oxford street signs are of course everywhere... and difficult to understand the IQ of council to have so many confusing road signs.... but never remember violating any road sign... then got this PCN on bus lane contravention in oxford street.

In the CCTV photograph of my car, you will notice that there is no bus lane visible. I am just struggling to understand if the council is really serious on making the road safe for all or such a trap is for earning money.... as nowadays it looks that greedy people/organization can go to any level to cut your pocket....

We must do something all together, otherwise many others will be victimized

Any help would be highly appreciated.


Start your own thread and post the PCN


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:09
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QUOTE (TryMar @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 19:28) *
Hi,

I was looking for some help for this absurd PCN and ended up in this forum. I can quite clearly see that many others like me are in the same situation.

First time driving in Manchester, religiously following the navigator's instruction (2016 version) and driven the car as usual, the oxford street signs are of course everywhere... and difficult to understand the IQ of council to have so many confusing road signs.... but never remember violating any road sign... then got this PCN on bus lane contravention in oxford street.

In the CCTV photograph of my car, you will notice that there is no bus lane visible. I am just struggling to understand if the council is really serious on making the road safe for all or such a trap is for earning money.... as nowadays it looks that greedy people/organization can go to any level to cut your pocket....

We must do something all together, otherwise many others will be victimized

Any help would be highly appreciated.



You must start your own thread and post the PCN advice will vary dependent on location and dates

QUOTE (overlook @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:40) *
cheers @PMB

here's the photo mentioned above:

[attachment=53401:Reduced_...junction.jpg]

Use this decision to formulate your appeal,

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtBHPhdJdppVjynEj15FRLhf8ppZ


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overlook
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:58
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Cheers @pastmybest, the signage pointed out by the adjudicator fits near perfect to my own situation.

Here is my draft if you’d kindly give it the once over.

On the evening of the 19th January 2018, I was leaving the NHS carpark which exits onto Grafton Street. The road to the right was blocked with traffic, so a number of vehicles turned left onto Grafton Street which heads towards Oxford Road. The whole road was congested with Traffic. Unfamiliar with this area, but not seeing any restrictions, I followed a number of cars and turned left onto Oxford Road.

Although the evening was dark and it was raining, I did observe a high number of traffic signs on the left hand side of the road. (see my picture attachment 1 taken from the junction of Grafton Street and Oxford Road)
As I entered what I am now told is a “Bus gate” I was not aware that the vehicle prohibition was relevant to the road I was on. I only became aware of it when I received the PCN from Manchester City Council.

The CCTV capture of my vehicle is attachment 2.

My memory of the evening is that I can see there is a slip-roadway to the left with a restriction sign beyond it to the left. I am also conscious of bus stop markings. At no point was I conscious of entering a prohibited roadway as no road signs or markings would fairly indicate that to me. The CCTV capture (App 2) shows the restriction sign which is approximately 6 metres away from the nearside of my vehicle.

I think the decision to issue the PCN is unfair as it appears to be a consequence of poor design and/or implementation of signage, unless you know it is there and pertinent to the road in the first place.
From my own observations whilst visiting the Hospital since, I have seen countless other vehicles enter that section of road which indicates that there could be a problem with signage information not being received by the drivers.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:20
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That looks fine. I was pulling my hair out trying to find an argument re signs. In this case a simple heartfelt approach is the best. Don't expect the council to fold however


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overlook
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:28
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Cheers for the quick response.

just a couple of questions:

If I do this on-line and get it to them pronto, do I still get the option to pay the £30 if the appeal is rejected?

On the grounds for appeal, do I just check the box for "other grounds" and put my appeal words and pictures with it?

thanks

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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:32
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QUOTE (overlook @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:28) *
Cheers for the quick response.

just a couple of questions:

If I do this on-line and get it to them pronto, do I still get the option to pay the £30 if the appeal is rejected?

On the grounds for appeal, do I just check the box for "other grounds" and put my appeal words and pictures with it?

thanks


They do not have to re offer the discount but may do

use the ground the contravention did not occur


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overlook
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:44
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As you say, this maybe a wing and a prayer.

If I appeal within the 14 day period (during the reduced charged period) would time not be frozen until an adjudication had been made, leaving me several days of the clock still to run at the lower charge?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:50
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QUOTE (overlook @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:44) *
As you say, this maybe a wing and a prayer.

If I appeal within the 14 day period (during the reduced charged period) would time not be frozen until an adjudication had been made, leaving me several days of the clock still to run at the lower charge?


No They may re offer the discount, if they reject representations but they don't have to. They most certainly will not re offer the discount if you were to lose at appeal.

you can pay £30 now or take a double or quits bet with the odds on your side because you get two bites of the cherry. The council then the adjudicator.

If you lose it will not be for about 3 months so save the cost of a cup of coffee a week and you will have the difference just in case


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overlook
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 12:13
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Just keeping this thread up to date.
I've entered my appeal with Manchester City Council, now just waiting for the response.

My daughter has just received a PCN for using the same piece of road....Deja Vu....Again
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Umtwebby
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 12:46
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QUOTE (overlook @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 12:13) *
Just keeping this thread up to date.
I've entered my appeal with Manchester City Council, now just waiting for the response.

My daughter has just received a PCN for using the same piece of road....Deja Vu....Again


At my TPT on Friday 16 February 2018 for this location (Nelson Street to Hathersage Road) the adjudicator described the signage as 'hopeless' in the written adjudication and in the oral hearing told Manchester City Council that they should not be enforcing PCN's until they have sorted the signage out.

This post has been edited by Umtwebby: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 12:47
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John U.K.
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 12:47
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QUOTE
I've entered my appeal with Manchester City Council, now just waiting for the response.


Reps. Not 'appeal' yet! Make sure you have kept a hard copy: you may well need it later.

QUOTE
My daughter has just received a PCN for using the same piece of road....Deja Vu....Again


As usual, please start new thread for new PCN.
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Incandescent
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 13:13
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QUOTE
At my TPT on Friday 16 February 2018 for this location (Nelson Street to Hathersage Road) the adjudicator described the signage as 'hopeless' in the written adjudication and in the oral hearing told Manchester City Council that they should not be enforcing PCN's until they have sorted the signage out.

But of course they will because most people just cough-up as soon as they receive the PCN, it is money for old rope for them. My view is that if an adjudicator told them that, then they are guilty of malfeasance if they just carry on. Only when some officials go to jail will things change.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 13:13
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overlook
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 13:27
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Thanks to the above for advice and corrections......duly noted.
I have a friend of a friend who informs me that this particular section and the associated signage is a hot topic of conversation within MCC traffic.
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Umtwebby
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 13:39
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 13:13) *
QUOTE
At my TPT on Friday 16 February 2018 for this location (Nelson Street to Hathersage Road) the adjudicator described the signage as 'hopeless' in the written adjudication and in the oral hearing told Manchester City Council that they should not be enforcing PCN's until they have sorted the signage out.

But of course they will because most people just cough-up as soon as they receive the PCN, it is money for old rope for them. My view is that if an adjudicator told them that, then they are guilty of malfeasance if they just carry on. Only when some officials go to jail will things change.


FOI ready and waiting. Probably in about 2 weeks!
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overlook
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 14:50
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Thanks Umtwebby

It does feel as if the tide is finally turning on this ridiculous stance and attitude by the council.
Nothing's in the bag till it's in the bag....I'll keep the thread posted.
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overlook
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 09:09
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The article below was published in the Manchester Evening News yesterday.........150,000 fines in six months..
full article.....www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/oxford-road-bus-lane-fines-14326548


Motorists using Oxford Road in Manchester city centre have been caught out driving in bus lanes - where general traffic is banned - nearly 150,000 times in just six months.

Manchester council has confirmed it has issued 149,898 penalty notices since the new measures were introduced last September - more than 800 a day.


If all those issued with tickets paid £60, the council will have raked in £8,990,580 - taking into account the 55 successfully appealed fines.

Oxford Road - one of Europe’s busiest bus routes - was transformed into what transport chiefs describe as a ‘Dutch boulevard’ last September.

It means vehicles other than buses, black cabs and cyclists are banned from sections of the corridor - which also features new segregated cycle paths - from 6am to 9pm daily.

Two ‘bus gates’ - sections where cars aren’t allowed - are marked with a red circle, with a motorbike above a car inside.


One covers the area from Hathersage Road near Whitworth Park through to Booth Street East and West, near the Royal Northern College of Music, in both directions.

The other spans the area from Whitworth Street West to Portland Street. That section just covers traffic heading north, towards the city centre.

The new-look road has been heralded by many, including cycling tsar and Olympian Chris Boardman, who revealed plans to replicate the bike-friendly road across Greater Manchester.

But it has been controversial among some motorists who claim it’s a ‘money-making ploy’ targeting, in particular, out-of-towners and hospital visitors.

Driver Alexandra Frank said the bus lanes are not adequately signposted.

“We got caught after Nelson Street and we didn’t see any signs,” she said.

“Unsuspecting city visitors and other drivers are corralled into the ‘no cars’ area and then photographed.

“They realise only too late.”

Emma Barlow said she was fined after her mum was admitted to the MRI for urgent heart surgery.

She added: “On the day she was admitted it appears I drove down a bus lane on Oxford Road.

“When I rang the council they said I’d actually done it four more times while visitng my mum and will be fined a total of £300.”

Emma said the signage was insufficient - and that many sat nav systems still direct drivers down the road.

Barbara Lawrence, 66, a retired civil servant, was visiting Manchester when she drove down Oxford Road.

“I turned on to the road and didn’t see any signage,” she said.

“I had been there previously visiting a friend in hospital and wasn’t aware of the changes. It’s not fair.”

Coun Angeliki Stogia, executive member for the environment and skills, said the Oxford Road bus gates were part of a £1bn investment in city centre infrastructure to ensure buses - the most used public transport - could move efficiently along one of Europe’s busiest bus routes.

She said they were reducing congestion, making it safer for those walking, cycling or catching the bus into town.

Signage, she said, was clear, with alternative routes marked out.

The vast majority of drivers were complying, she said, adding: “The number of motorists driving into the prohibited zone is very low compared to the volume of traffic which used this road prior to the introduction of bus gates, which proves their effectiveness.”

The council advertised extensively prior to enforcing the lanes, she said, with 26,000 letters issued to motorists.

She added: “We believe that the vast majority of penalty notices are being issued to motorists from outside of the city who are travelling to Manchester for the first time and following outdated sat nav routes.

“We have been in contact with the relevant companies, to ensure that their maps are updated.

“Any suggestion that the bus gates have been adopted as a revenue-raising measure is entirely false. Revenues from penalty notices cannot be used to support general council budgets and can only be reinvested in schemes to improve Manchester’s highways.”


Alison Chew, TfGM’s Interim Head of Bus Services, the goal of Oxford road’s transformation was to make life better for bus passengers. The number of cyclists using the stretch of road has doubled since the new system, she added, with 5,000 cycle journeys recorded on a single day last year.


Thousands of people, she said, were benefitting from the walkways and public spaces, and road signage adheres to government standards.

Bus gate fines, also known as penalty charge notices are £60. However if you pay within 14 days of the date of notice the charge is reduced to £30. If you don’t pay within 28 days, it will go up to £90.


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DancingDad
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 10:17
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QUOTE
taking into account the 55 successfully appealed fines.


Which the paper could have elaborated on, especially as in those we know off, the signage has been slammed by adjudicators.
Plus of course the OOT issue on some
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overlook
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 10:45
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Too true. I think we all know how these politicians work, and the papers too for that matter.

The bloody mindedness of the council have to state the number of "offenders" then they roll out the PR machine to say how good it is!
There are some interesting comments posted on the article which are not too dissimilar to views expressed on here.
The council are trying to state how good this scheme is and the signage is great blah blah.

Tomorrow I will be helping my daughter with her representations to the council for the exact same spot.
Thanks to members on this site and we should support and encourage unfortunate law abiding citizens to raise their voice.
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John U.K.
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 10:47
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55 appeals allowed, according to the news report. Any idea how many refused?
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