NTO from Council - I'm RK - I'm not the Driver, I am the registered keeper but not the driver. Options

[Perfo3]

First off hello this is my first post.
I know this exact same situation will have been covered before but searching for all the conditions in different ways failed to show me any thread identical to my predicament.

Basically
I brought a car for my daughter to go back and forward to Uni in Northampton
Though I am the RK (as I'm still paying for it) it is for all other intents and purposes her car. I'm not insured to drive it and don't see it for six months at a time. .
She has been like a parking ticket magnet ever since taking up residency in Northampton.
I keep getting NTOs from Northampton council (enough to paper a wall with)
So far either her or her boyfriend have been paying them but long story short they aren't paying this time and thus I'm going to have to fight this my self.

I'll post up my NTO when I get home today

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[Perfo3]

First off,
Hello (this is my first post).

I know this exact same situation will have been covered before but searching for all the conditions in different ways failed to show me any thread identical to my predicament. So I apologise upfront for posting yet another one.

Basically
I brought a car for my daughter to go back and forward to Uni in Northampton
Though I am the RK (as I'm still paying for it) it is for all other intents and purposes her car. I'm not insured to drive it and don't see it for six months at a time. .
She has been like a parking ticket magnet ever since taking up residency in Northampton.
I keep getting NTOs from Northampton council (enough to paper a wall with)
So far either her or her boyfriend have been paying them but long story short they aren't paying this time and thus I'm going to have to fight this my self.

I'll post up my NTO when I get home today

[John U.K.]

What is the date of the NtO?
As usual, for best advice please post up the NtO and PCN (both sides)

Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.
Redact/obscure personal details, PCN no. Reg No.

Also post up a GSV (Google Street View) link to the location.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

[PASTMYBEST]

The owner is liable, this is presumed to be the registered keeper, but you can argue the owner is not you. If this succeeds then the council can re issue a NTO in your daughters name
A tough nut to crack though

post up the NTO and council photos lets see if it can be fought

[John U.K.]

You seem to have two identical threads?
Hit 'Report' button and ask a Mod to merge.

[Perfo3]

I guessed I may have double posted, as when I submitted it it told me I couldn't as I'd just posted and then it accepted.. I'll get the other one removed... Thanks for the heads up.

I'm just scanning in the details and I'll post them..
I find it really hmmmm corrupt it is the owners liability ?? how on earth did that get passed as a law.
What is the basis of issuing a fine if it is not to discourage reckless parking ? You make no effect at all on the parking unless you fine the Parker..

[peterguk]

I find it really hmmmm corrupt it is the owners liability ?? how on earth did that get passed as a law.

How are the council going to find anyone who is related to the vehicle except for the RK details held by DVLA?

[Perfo3]

I haven't seen the PCN only the NtO.

Here is all the details I have on it.

Page 1 of the NtO


Page2 of the NtO


Page 3 of the NtO


Page 4 of the NtO


Pic 1 of car


Pic 2 of car


Pic 3 of Car

I find it really hmmmm corrupt it is the owners liability ?? how on earth did that get passed as a law.

How are the council going to find anyone who is related to the vehicle except for the RK details held by DVLA?

I agree and I would even go as far as saying if you are not willing to identify the driver then you are liable. But even if the driver admits it was them, unless they pay up the council still harass the RK.
I know this from bad experience. The Daughter eventually paid up and got them off my case but they weren't have any of it until they got their money no matter whom paid.


GSV link https://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.23966...59,-32.7h,5p,1z

I've never been there though so don't know where it is..


This post has been edited by Perfo3: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 - 19:25

[Neil B]

In the absence of any info to the contrary, the contravention looks sound.

On technical:
They've got very confused with their payment and reps timescales on the NtO.

Some wording wrong and 21st April is wrong.

Deadline in law is 20th.

May be more; not looked yet

[PASTMYBEST]

In the absence of any info to the contrary, the contravention looks sound.

On technical:
They've got very confused with their payment and reps timescales on the NtO.

Some wording wrong and 21st April is wrong.

Deadline in law is 20th.

May be more; not looked yet

I got form and manner of making appeal.

[Neil B]

I got form and manner of making appeal.

Agreed.
Was just looking at it but baulking at the thought of going 'hippo-esque'.
- but in this instance.

[hcandersen]

The NTO does not comply with the regulations (big time, as per NeilB) because it fails to state the period permitted in law for making payment or reps, namely the period of 28 days beginning on the date of service. The law does not require the authority to state this date (which in any event they've miscalculated), it requires them to state the words, or words to the same effect. They haven't. IMO, you would win at adjudication on this point alone, plus skillfully crafted reps!

But both the OP and I, and probably others, know this is not the issue, don't we!

Such a flagrant contravention and yet they refuse to pay the penalty. Not just relationship undertones, b****y symphonies.

Something fundamental's afoot and parking regs are ill-equipped to deal with these. You'll win on this one, but the real problem would still exist. Nuclear option: write/email your daughter gifting her the car. If you are the insured party, then tell her to take out her own insurance wef *** date - when your insurance is cancelled, presuming you are the insured.

But we're not an Agony Aunt for relationship matters, ours is a much simpler task!

[PASTMYBEST]

I got form and manner of making appeal.

Agreed.
Was just looking at it but baulking at the thought of going 'hippo-esque'.
- but in this instance.

NeilB In the context of this forum there are worse things that could happen


Op

Reps on the basis of not owner. Naming daughter + a bit of technical might persuade the council to cancel. Include any evidence you have that you are only RK and not owner
Far better chance at adjudication, but if needs be you might as well it costs no more

[Neil B]

and as it's your first experience here - I imagine you might have some questions.

That's to be expected; bring 'em on.

[Hippocrates]

It also fails another regulation re the form and manner of making an appeal.

[Neil B]

It also fails another regulation re the form and manner of making an appeal.

Do keep up old chap!

[Perfo3]

Fast response and some great observations thanks to all posters...A very active forum....

LOL about the agony aunt bit. The daughter has had almost one a month (exaggerated a bit ) since going to uni a year ago. I really don't understand how anyone can not intentionally get so many but as you say not for his forum.
Her being a student says she can't afford it and thus not paying... Between her and the boy friend (that is now the X) hey have wasted hundreds getting and paying these things (after me getting the NtO first of course and harassing them)
Whilst I/we give her money for all sorts of stuff it would really hurt me to pay this..
I have paid tickets before for myself (Two in my life time) without question as I was bang to rights wrong and thus my own stupid fault but it make me rage a bit thinking the RK can be held responsible for things like this when they aren't the driver (and can prove it) it servers no purpose and is morally wrong..

Oops I'm raging and digressing, sorry

So if I'm reading this right, the consensus is for me to try and convince the council that it's not my car ?

It's on one of these PCP things so I have to have it in my name as I'm paying for it,
On insurance front I have a multi car thing with Admiral and it's pretty good as we have a few cars and it allows my daughter to be the the only driver listed on that one (I am not insured to drive it).
However she pays me the insurance every month and as shes the other side of the country to me (I'm on Anglesey) I hardly ever even see the car.

If the first defence doesn't work I can then attack the NtO ?

Is this about right ?

Thanks Again,

[PASTMYBEST]

Fast response and some great observations thanks to all posters...A very active forum....

LOL about the agony aunt bit. The daughter has had almost one a month (exaggerated a bit ) since going to uni a year ago. I really don't understand how anyone can not intentionally get so many but as you say not for his forum.
Her being a student says she can't afford it and thus not paying... Between her and the boy friend (that is now the X) hey have wasted hundreds getting and paying these things (after me getting the NtO first of course and harassing them)
Whilst I/we give her money for all sorts of stuff it would really hurt me to pay this..
I have paid tickets before for myself (Two in my life time) without question as I was bang to rights wrong and thus my own stupid fault but it make me rage a bit thinking the RK can be held responsible for things like this when they aren't the driver (and can prove it) it servers no purpose and is morally wrong..

Oops I'm raging and digressing, sorry

So if I'm reading this right, the consensus is for me to try and convince the council that it's not my car ?

It's on one of these PCP things so I have to have it in my name as I'm paying for it,
On insurance front I have a multi car thing with Admiral and it's pretty good as we have a few cars and it allows my daughter to be the the only driver listed on that one (I am not insured to drive it).
However she pays me the insurance every month and as shes the other side of the country to me (I'm on Anglesey) I hardly ever even see the car.

If the first defence doesn't work I can then attack the NtO ?

Is this about right ?

Thanks Again,

yep the not insured to drive and the car being kept in Northampton and you being in Anglesey should help. It won't be the first time they've seen this but until you make reps they won't know


You should be warned though that if you give daughters name and address, they serve a new NTO on her, if she doesn't pay (coz I can't see her winning an appeal) then charges escalate and when bailiff get involved that can be quite quick

No CCJ though

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 - 09:28

[hcandersen]

Good point by PMB and the OP needs to look beyond the PCN.

Scenario 1
Authority accept your reps and issue her with a NTO. She variously flips, goes into meltdown, then into hiding, then into panic, quickly followed by increasing debt. Ultimately the car is seized and she asks you for another. 😏

Scenario 2
You deal with the NTO and make reps on the grounds of procedural impropriety, which IMO is a winning hand. In parallel you sort out your internal problems!

[DJ Lexy]

The daughter has had almost one a month (exaggerated a bit ) since going to uni a year ago. I really don't understand how anyone can not intentionally get so many but as you say not for his forum.

Well, that photo clearly shows her parked on double yellow lines, quite far away from the kerb, on what appears to be quite a narrow road. If that's how she regularly parks, one PCN a month sounds about right. I don't know your daughter at all, so it might be unfair to say, but it sounds like your daughter is being a bit unreasonable here, and you're frustrated. Especially because you're finding out about the PCNs from the Notice to Owner that arrives at your house - by which time the discount has gone and you're paying twice what you need to.

Technically, the registered keeper is responsible for all Penalty Charge Notices (unless the registered keeper is a car hire company with a suitable clause in the hire agreement - you're probably not a care hire company, so we'll leave that circumstance alone). You might get a nice person at the council to re-issue a PCN in her name, but there's no obligation on the council to do this.

Regardless of how this Penalty Charge Notice turns out, I highly recommend you contact the DVLA and get the registered keeper changed to your daughter. This way, any future PCNs won't be your problem. She also needs to either learn to follow the parking rules, or pay PCNs promptly. Tell her that PCNs don't go away if you ignore them. They eventually end up in the hands of bailiffs, at which point a £35 parking ticket becomes a demand for over £200. If she leaves the car parked in the street, bailiffs can and will tow it away and sell it to cover the costs.

I know you want your daughter to have the car and you don't want bailiffs coming to take it away. But if my dad had ever bought me a car (he didn't), I wouldn't thank him by expecting him to pay a string of parking tickets.