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Dropped Kerbs, Parking
Veglia
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 21:08
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Hello, I live mid terrace with on street parking. My neighbour has made the garden into a small 'drive' which is not large enough to park a car and has used this as the basis to get the kerb dropped over the full width of the house. He now claims exclusive rights to park in the street outside his house to the inconvenience of others wanting to park. What is the law on parking in front of a dropped kerb? As the neighbour cannot actually use the drive without getting a considerably smaller car, would there still be an obstruction if someone else parked by the dropped kerb?
Thanks,
Veglia
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post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 21:08
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stamfordman
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 21:36
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This is better in the flame pit section.

If the neighbour can get a small car on the drive then it's a legitimate crossover and neighbour will undoubtedly call the council to get you a PCN if you park there. But you can write to the council saying you believe the neighbour has basically stolen precious kerbside space and ask them to investigate.

Take a pic and let's have a look.
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cp8759
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 21:44
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QUOTE (Veglia @ Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 22:08) *
Hello, I live mid terrace with on street parking. My neighbour has made the garden into a small 'drive' which is not large enough to park a car and has used this as the basis to get the kerb dropped over the full width of the house. He now claims exclusive rights to park in the street outside his house to the inconvenience of others wanting to park. What is the law on parking in front of a dropped kerb? As the neighbour cannot actually use the drive without getting a considerably smaller car, would there still be an obstruction if someone else parked by the dropped kerb?
Thanks,
Veglia

If the council granted the dropped kerb on the basis that it was to be for vehicular access, you cannot park across it regardless of whether he parks on his "drive".


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Veglia
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 23:28
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Thanks for replies. This is interesting - firstly, it was not just a case of paving over the garden - this involved a major structural excavation and retaining walls to support the house. The council refused planning a few years ago, citing a whole list of reasons it was not acceptable. Neighbour waited a few years then went ahead anyway, claiming 'permitted development rights'. Council responded with enforcement notice and again refused retrospective planning for the same reasons. It went to appeal and incredibly the planning inspectorate allowed the appeal and planning permission was granted. So the Council have been disempowered at great expense and it seems unlikely that they will revisit this case.

So my next question is, would I be able to drop the kerb in front of my garden wall and enjoy the same exclusive parking rights? I could dig out a small motorbike space in the garden if necessary.
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cp8759
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 23:41
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QUOTE (Veglia @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 00:28) *
Thanks for replies. This is interesting - firstly, it was not just a case of paving over the garden - this involved a major structural excavation and retaining walls to support the house. The council refused planning a few years ago, citing a whole list of reasons it was not acceptable. Neighbour waited a few years then went ahead anyway, claiming 'permitted development rights'. Council responded with enforcement notice and again refused retrospective planning for the same reasons. It went to appeal and incredibly the planning inspectorate allowed the appeal and planning permission was granted. So the Council have been disempowered at great expense and it seems unlikely that they will revisit this case.

So my next question is, would I be able to drop the kerb in front of my garden wall and enjoy the same exclusive parking rights? I could dig out a small motorbike space in the garden if necessary.

No idea, you'd have to check on a planning law forum. But assuming you managed to get a dropped kerb to get access to your motorbike space, then I don't see what would stop you from doing what he did. If the council are against this however, they might simply decline to enforce.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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TigerRob
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 12:38
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Your council should have a policy for dropped curbs/residential crossovers. E.g. You can find Hounslow's here

Hounslow specify a minimum size for a parking space that is needed.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 15:17
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QUOTE (Veglia @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 00:28) *
It went to appeal and incredibly the planning inspectorate allowed the appeal and planning permission was granted.

Having attended a planning appeal its no surprise to me, the council rep was less useful than a chocolate teapot (which is at east edible), my submissions on some facts quite took him by surprise despite that fact I'd raised them with the council during the consultation phase when the plans first went up.


This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 15:20


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facade
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 17:56
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As TigerRob suggests, find out your council's policy on dropped kerbs.
Mine will not allow them the full width of the house frontage, and you have to either get a permit for an approved contractor to do the work, (which has to meet standards) or pay the council to do it. If they don't like the result then they will put it right and charge.

You might find that it wasn't approved...

Parking outside peoples houses is a very emotive subject. I always think it is actually a Bad Idea to get movable cars that you don't know who owns ticketed outside your fixed house that is going to be there for years 24 hours a day, but what would I know rolleyes.gif
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 18:10
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Better than around here where people just cover their front garden in rubble and expect you to psychically understand they need the kerb left free to bump their car up and down.

There was even one I saw where they had put a wooden ramp.in front.

That's before you get onto people reserving themselves a space with wheelie bins.
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Ocelot
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 18:41
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:10) *
Better than around here where people just cover their front garden in rubble and expect you to psychically understand they need the kerb left free to bump their car up and down.

There was even one I saw where they had put a wooden ramp.in front.

That's before you get onto people reserving themselves a space with wheelie bins.


I pass something similar every day:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2884435,-...3312!8i6656

(hopefully the above will come out).
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stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:42
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This one near me has a bogus disabled sign....

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TigerRob
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 21:15
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:10) *
... and expect you to psychically understand they need the kerb left free to bump their car up and down.

Isn't crossing a pavement somewhere without a dropped curb an offence? (Not that that would stop some people)
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 21:18
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council will have a policy it will outline the max size and requirements as to the area to be used for off road parking if we knew the council we could look
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The Rookie
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 21:47
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Or just ask them if they dropped the kerb or if it’s been vandalised!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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cp8759
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 22:09
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QUOTE (TigerRob @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:10) *
... and expect you to psychically understand they need the kerb left free to bump their car up and down.

Isn't crossing a pavement somewhere without a dropped curb an offence? (Not that that would stop some people)

Not if it is for lawful access to adjacent land


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Redivi
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 10:34
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 23:09) *
QUOTE (TigerRob @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:10) *
... and expect you to psychically understand they need the kerb left free to bump their car up and down.

Isn't crossing a pavement somewhere without a dropped curb an offence? (Not that that would stop some people)

Not if it is for lawful access to adjacent land

But it's not lawful access
Otherwise the only reason to pay for a lowered kerb is to stop anyone else parking there
The council can argue that it eventually damages kerbs

Mate lives in a street with no dropped kerbs but everyone parks on a drive

Neighbour got upset about a guest who parked in front of his house and threatened to "call the wardens round"

Mate pointed out that, after the wardens had ticketed everyone in the street - any car not in a driveway had its wheels on the pavement - he would make known who was responsible for the visit



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facade
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:38
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QUOTE (TigerRob @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:10) *
... and expect you to psychically understand they need the kerb left free to bump their car up and down.

Isn't crossing a pavement somewhere without a dropped curb an offence? (Not that that would stop some people)



There is probably a byelaw covering it, as the pavement has to be "reinforced" to allow vehicles to cross. I put a drive on the front of my house years ago, and eventually I got an official letter from The Council threatening me with crucifixion or something if I continued to drive over the pavement, or I could pay them £60 I think it was, and they would put me in a dropped kerb as they were due to resurface the pavement.

I paid and have an official dropped kerb- the "reinforced" part looked the same as the rest of the sandy grit to my untrained eye I have to say wink.gif

There is a page full of provisos now; amongst other things you have to have solid gateposts a maximum distance apart for the 4 paver (or 6 max for a double drive) drop so that you aren't able to drive over a bit of "unreinforced" pavement on the way in.

You can no doubt snitch on anyone driving over the pavement to access their drive without a dropped kerb over the traditional lump of wood, or simply park across their frontage when they are out (blocking access to a property from the street isn't obstruction, only blocking access from the property to the street)

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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 21:46
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:34) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 23:09) *
QUOTE (TigerRob @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:10) *
... and expect you to psychically understand they need the kerb left free to bump their car up and down.

Isn't crossing a pavement somewhere without a dropped curb an offence? (Not that that would stop some people)

Not if it is for lawful access to adjacent land

But it's not lawful access

Why not? It's not trespass if it's your land, and crossing the pavement to park on land is permitted, see section 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988:

(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, if without lawful authority a person drives a mechanically propelled vehicle—
(a)on to or upon any common land, moorland or land of any other description, not being land forming part of a road, or
(b)on any road being a footpath, bridleway or restricted byway,
he is guilty of an offence.
...
(3) It is not an offence under this section to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on any land within fifteen yards of a road, being a road on which a motor vehicle may lawfully be driven, for the purpose only of parking the vehicle on that land.


How can you say it's not lawful access?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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